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Feb. 12, 2024

Kiona Nessenbaum: Embracing the Duality of Birth Work and Motherhood with Heart and Wisdom

Kiona Nessenbaum: Embracing the Duality of Birth Work and Motherhood with Heart and Wisdom
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Season 2

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When Kiona Nessenbaum, a dedicated doula and birth worker, shares her story, you can't help but feel the room change. As she recounts her own unexpected journey into motherhood at a young age and her evolution into a professional guiding others through the birthing process, it's a reminder of the resilience and transformative power of women. From humorous labor moments to the nitty-gritty of breastfeeding challenges, Kiona invites us into her world, offering unfiltered insights that highlight the emotional and practical aspects of childbirth.

Navigating the delicate balance between professional aspirations and parenting is no small feat, and Kiona's candid discussions on the subject shed light on a reality many mothers face. She articulates the complexities of birth decisions, the emotional landscape of motherhood, and the critical importance of creating culturally sensitive birthing environments. Her personal narratives underscore the varied experiences of childbirth and the necessity for healthcare providers to foster empathetic spaces, especially for people of color. Kiona's warmth and wisdom resonate, offering connection and inspiration whether you're a new parent, a birth worker, or someone with a curiosity about the world of childbirth.

Join us for an episode that explores the intersection of personal experience and professional dedication. Kiona not only shares her profound birth stories but also extends an open invitation to continue the conversation about birthing in our community. If you've ever wondered about the power of support during labor or the impact of informed care, this episode promises to enrich your understanding and perhaps even guide your own birthing choices. With Kiona's encouragement, we're reminded of the importance of sharing these stories, fostering inclusivity, and the beauty of finding kindred spirits in life's most transformative journeys.

Connect with Kiona:
kionanessenbaum.com

https://www.instagram.com/birthasweknowitpodcast

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Medical Disclaimer:
This podcast is intended as a safe space for women to share their birth experiences. It is not intended to provide medical advice. Each woman’s medical course of action is individual and may not appropriately transfer to another similar situation. Please speak to your medical provider before making any medical decisions. Additionally, it is important to keep in mind that evidence based practice evolves as our knowledge of science improves. To the best of my ability I will attempt to present the most current ACOG and AWHONN recommendations at the time the podcast is recorded, but that may not necessarily reflect the best practices at the time the podcast is heard. Additionally, guests sharing their stories have the right to autonomy in their medical decisions, and may share their choice to go against current practice recommendations. I intend to hold space for people to share their decisions. I will attempt to share the current recommendations so that my audience is informed, but it is up to each individual to choose what is best for them.

Chapters

00:00 - Birth Stories and Balancing Motherhood

10:51 - 'Transitioning From Breastfeeding to Doula Work

21:15 - Home Birth and Representation Importance

34:33 - Home Birth Challenges and Postpartum Depression

49:53 - Membrane Stripping and Labor Progression

01:04:26 - Experiences and Perspectives on Birthing

01:11:00 - Creating Inclusive Birth Environment

01:17:42 - Reflections on Pregnancy and Birth Experiences

01:23:18 - Birth Stories and Podcast Collaboration

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:00.461 --> 00:00:04.291
Hello, today I have with me Kiona Nessenbaum.

00:00:04.291 --> 00:00:10.512
Kiona is a doula, a birth assistant, and has experience as a student midwife.

00:00:10.512 --> 00:00:15.471
She's also the mother of three and the host of the Birth as we Know it podcast.

00:00:15.471 --> 00:00:22.373
Today she is here to share her birth stories and how she manages to balance motherhood and all of her other endeavors.

00:00:22.373 --> 00:00:25.469
Kiona, thank you so much for joining me.

00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:30.091
Yeah, no problem, I'm super excited and, to be honest, a little nervous.

00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:42.274
I am super used to hosting, but I am not used to being the one interviewed, so yeah, well, no one knows your birth stories better than you, so I'm sure that once you get into it you're not even going to remember I'm here.

00:00:42.274 --> 00:00:44.006
Yeah, that's probably true.

00:00:44.006 --> 00:00:54.969
So I'm curious, because you mentioned that you did not start off as a birth worker when you went into your first birth, and I want to know how that was for you and then what.

00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:59.750
So let's get ready to not hear Kelly for a while, because I have a lot to say.

00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:04.590
So I'll just go ahead and start off with finding out that I'm pregnant, right?

00:01:04.590 --> 00:01:14.865
So I am 19 years old and I find out that I am pregnant with my first child and at the time my boyfriend, who is now my husband.

00:01:14.865 --> 00:01:18.774
But my boyfriend was 18 years old and a senior in high school.

00:01:18.774 --> 00:01:35.903
So I was in my first year of college and we were shocked that we were pregnant, but at the same time, I like to think of it being as we weren't intentionally trying, but we also weren't intentionally preventing, Because I was on birth control.

00:01:35.903 --> 00:01:52.093
But I ended up stopping being on birth control because when I went into college, I actually went to a Christian private university called Seattle Pacific University and so I stopped taking birth control because at that time I was, like I am a strong believer of God, like abstinence is the way to go.

00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:54.123
Man, was I so stupid?

00:01:54.123 --> 00:01:56.168
Because I was already.

00:01:56.168 --> 00:02:03.010
I already had had sex before, right, and so once you feel the feels, you can't not want them anymore.

00:02:03.010 --> 00:02:16.552
And so, of course, me and my boyfriend at the time, who is my husband I'm just going to call him from my husband from here and out but me and my husband at the time were still doing the dirty and I was like Just praying to God afterwards, right.

00:02:17.842 --> 00:02:18.526
Please forgive us.

00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:21.127
Yeah, we have sinned, you know.

00:02:21.127 --> 00:02:28.354
And then I ended up being pregnant and it was a surprise, but, like I said, we weren't preventing it.

00:02:28.354 --> 00:02:35.614
So once I got pregnant, I really, really, really intentionally wanted to have an unmedicated birth.

00:02:35.614 --> 00:02:43.210
And at this time, with being so young, the insurance I was on was state insurance and so I was like all right, what does my insurance offer me?

00:02:43.210 --> 00:02:44.746
Where can I go to birth?

00:02:44.746 --> 00:02:48.811
And my first thought was OK, let me go to a hospital, because that's all I knew.

00:02:48.811 --> 00:02:52.602
That's all I knew at the time, and little did I know.

00:02:53.242 --> 00:03:05.846
Throughout my pregnancy I was heavily looking for midwifery care through an OB because I thought that my insurance only covered OBs right, and so I went through my whole pregnancy.

00:03:05.846 --> 00:03:16.644
I even fired my OB once and got a new one and tried to do all that I could to make sure that I was getting high quality care and it was met.

00:03:16.644 --> 00:03:18.890
But it wasn't that midwifery care I was looking for.

00:03:18.890 --> 00:03:24.549
But my provider that I chose was awesome Can't say I remember their name now, but it felt right.

00:03:25.181 --> 00:03:32.693
And that OB did not end up being the OB that was present at my birth, which is really common in hospital births.

00:03:32.693 --> 00:03:35.209
I actually ended up getting the laborist that was on the floor.

00:03:35.209 --> 00:03:42.070
I must have been birthing on a super busy day, but let me go into when I started labor with her.

00:03:42.070 --> 00:03:48.490
So when I went into labor I was at my mother-in-law's house because I had lived with her at the time and I had woken up.

00:03:48.490 --> 00:03:51.093
My husband and said, hey, I think things are rolling.

00:03:51.093 --> 00:04:00.670
And I did all the things of like taking a shower, and the funny part is I realized I was in labor when my bowels decided to just empty everything.

00:04:01.171 --> 00:04:02.843
Yes, it is such a real thing.

00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:05.106
Yeah, people don't talk about it, I don't know.

00:04:05.106 --> 00:04:12.347
Your body kind of just ejects everything, and so I was like, ok, my contractions are getting closer and so I wake up my husband around 2 am.

00:04:12.347 --> 00:04:26.572
We end up stopping a block away to pick up his best friend at the time, because he lived a block away and my husband is an only child, so he wanted his best friend because it's like the closest thing he has to a sibling to be by his side to support him on his journey to parenthood.

00:04:26.673 --> 00:04:28.324
And I was all for it, OK, cool.

00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:30.103
I was like, OK, that's cool, whatever.

00:04:30.103 --> 00:04:32.189
But I can't say I can say that now.

00:04:32.189 --> 00:04:37.661
But when we stopped when I was in labor, I was like you got to be kidding me, we just need to go, you know.

00:04:37.661 --> 00:04:38.925
So we get to the hospital.

00:04:38.925 --> 00:05:00.632
I really really thought that I was going to love the tub, but when I got checked in I did not love the tub because the hospital didn't let me or the nurse at the time did not let me make the water as hot as I wanted to make it, and you know there's policies in the hospital you can't have your water too high because you're burning yourself or boiling the baby, I don't know what it is.

00:05:00.632 --> 00:05:05.252
But at the time I was just so angry because I wanted it so bad and it didn't work.

00:05:05.252 --> 00:05:11.593
And then I got out and I was so cold and I feel like it just really impacted my labor because I was so cold.

00:05:12.139 --> 00:05:17.391
Labor continued to progress and my husband is completely terrified of blood.

00:05:17.391 --> 00:05:25.454
So that's something that is hard to be afraid of when you have a laboring partner, because blood is part of it, right.

00:05:25.454 --> 00:05:35.709
And so there was one point in my labor when I was like, babe, I really need you to push on my back, Like, oh, I was having like a lot of back pain, not like osteoporosis, you're wrong.

00:05:35.730 --> 00:05:36.451
Sonny side up.

00:05:36.451 --> 00:05:38.074
There you go, face up.

00:05:38.660 --> 00:05:42.862
Yeah, not a face up baby, but my back was feeling it right and little did.

00:05:42.862 --> 00:05:50.105
I know I was closer to actually giving birth, but he was giving me counter pressure and I was like, oh, I think my water broke because I felt some fluid come out.

00:05:50.105 --> 00:05:58.071
And he looked and it was not water, it was blood, it was a lot of bloody show just coming out and saying your cervix has changed, you know.

00:05:58.071 --> 00:06:04.891
So he freaked out and he decided that that was the time to go grab my sister.

00:06:04.891 --> 00:06:11.649
So my sister came in and I'm a party birther so I love everybody around.

00:06:11.649 --> 00:06:17.101
So when COVID happened I was terrified because I was like no people need their families, but yeah.

00:06:17.101 --> 00:06:25.071
So he decided to take that as an opportunity to step back into the corner, take his glasses off and not see anything anymore, but still be there, you know.

00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:26.665
And I was like that's cool.

00:06:26.845 --> 00:06:28.490
Know your boundaries, that's right, that's OK.

00:06:28.490 --> 00:06:31.529
So my sister was there and fast forward a little bit.

00:06:31.529 --> 00:06:41.733
My mother, my stepmother, my bonus mom, she was there with me and the thing I love the most about her being present was that she was a quiet voice.

00:06:41.733 --> 00:06:43.966
And she was the quiet voice that was in the space.

00:06:43.966 --> 00:06:52.985
You know, there's all of these beeping machines, there's all of the questions that are asked by the providers that are trying to make you comfortable and know what's going on, and she was the only quiet voice.

00:06:52.985 --> 00:06:59.105
And at that time I was like a little bit more religious, and I'm personally not religious now.

00:06:59.105 --> 00:07:01.045
Anyway, that's the whole thing.

00:07:01.339 --> 00:07:02.882
But I've been there, yeah.

00:07:03.740 --> 00:07:09.824
And so she was like praying, really quietly, saying like God, please guide my daughter through this labor.

00:07:09.824 --> 00:07:13.769
She really needs this to be calm and smooth and stuff like that.

00:07:13.769 --> 00:07:20.069
And I needed that so much at that time and I didn't realize it, but I needed it so bad.

00:07:20.069 --> 00:07:23.870
And then a little bit later on I got checked and I was about nine and a half centimeters.

00:07:23.870 --> 00:07:30.708
I had an anterior lip, and so the nurse told me to get them all fours and she was like, just do this for five contractions.

00:07:30.708 --> 00:07:33.970
And I was like, five contractions, jesus Christ, like these are insane.

00:07:33.970 --> 00:07:36.608
You know, it was so, so hard.

00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:47.944
And I got through those five contractions and oh, I should say, right before when she checked me, they broke my water because they said that it would speed things along and I was like, okay, so rude.

00:07:47.944 --> 00:07:51.387
Yeah, I was like, okay, like nine centimeters, okay.

00:07:51.387 --> 00:07:55.168
And so after those five contractions, I was complete and they said that I could push.

00:07:55.168 --> 00:08:00.947
And then my baby came and it was great and she was so cute and squishy.

00:08:00.947 --> 00:08:09.464
And then the nurse at the time looked at our daughter and then looked directly at my husband, was like she looks so much like you and then he started crying.

00:08:09.464 --> 00:08:14.610
I know I was like, oh God, I did all this work and she looks just like her dad.

00:08:14.610 --> 00:08:14.951
Thank you.

00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:20.826
And there's a reason for that, like evolutionary reason for that At least I tell myself that.

00:08:20.826 --> 00:08:28.045
So, if there was, like no DNA test, that the male parental partner might look at the baby and say, oh yeah, I'll stick around, that's mine.

00:08:28.446 --> 00:08:31.882
Yeah, and not like kill or eat the baby or something, right?

00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:35.346
If it looks like Joe down the street, he's probably not going to stick around, right?

00:08:35.346 --> 00:08:36.688
So it's probably a good thing.

00:08:36.708 --> 00:08:38.712
Yeah, which is true.

00:08:38.712 --> 00:08:44.253
I guess the nurse was feeling really primal at that time when she said that, but that was super awesome.

00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:45.823
And then I didn't figure out.

00:08:45.823 --> 00:08:49.687
Going into my postpartum, my breastfeeding was super simple.

00:08:49.687 --> 00:08:54.490
I did have it was my first time and I did have a really scary moment.

00:08:54.490 --> 00:09:01.085
About two weeks postpartum I was nursing my baby and she was coughing up little blood clots, and so that was really scary for me.

00:09:01.085 --> 00:09:10.671
And then one day she was wearing this like pristine white onesie Right, and then she spits up and it's literally all bright red blood.

00:09:10.671 --> 00:09:13.086
And I am terrified as a new mom.

00:09:13.086 --> 00:09:15.886
I am like what the hell is going on?

00:09:15.886 --> 00:09:17.250
Is my baby dying?

00:09:17.250 --> 00:09:18.504
Is she bleeding internally?

00:09:18.504 --> 00:09:20.505
Everything else about her seemed totally fine.

00:09:20.505 --> 00:09:23.203
She wasn't crying, she wasn't doing anything.

00:09:23.203 --> 00:09:24.688
That was unusual.

00:09:24.688 --> 00:09:28.729
So of course I call my hospital, tell them what's going on.

00:09:30.019 --> 00:09:34.524
And the nurse that was on the hotline was like check out your nipples, what do your nipples look like?

00:09:34.524 --> 00:09:39.831
And I look at my nipples, like, yes, breastfeeding is painful, but it's not unbearable for me.

00:09:39.831 --> 00:09:42.509
There were some moments where I'm like, ooh, this latch is really intense.

00:09:42.509 --> 00:09:45.448
I look at my nipples and I'm like I don't know.

00:09:45.448 --> 00:09:48.369
They're just like swollen and cracked a little bit.

00:09:48.369 --> 00:09:52.629
And she's like okay, what I want you to do is I want you to go grab your breast pump.

00:09:52.629 --> 00:09:53.331
Do you have a breast pump?

00:09:53.331 --> 00:10:01.485
I said yes, and she's like, if it comes out with a pink hue, it means that your baby is consuming a lot of blood from your nipples.

00:10:01.485 --> 00:10:06.788
And I was like, okay, and oh my gosh, it was like the pinkest of all pink.

00:10:06.788 --> 00:10:17.552
It was like strawberry milk and I was like, oh my God, she was spitting up the milk that her body can't digest and it was completely terrifying.

00:10:17.552 --> 00:10:21.486
But I was glad to know that it was like because of me and not because my baby was dying.

00:10:21.486 --> 00:10:23.504
So that was a huge thing for me.

00:10:23.504 --> 00:10:30.716
And that was just the beginning of my breastfeeding journey and so, of course, I continue to pay more attention to my nipples throughout my journey.

00:10:30.716 --> 00:10:47.331
But it got better and smoother and I would say the biggest I'm going to be honest here one of the biggest struggles I had is I have really big nipples and my baby has a really small mouth, and so I'm like, how are we doing this?

00:10:47.331 --> 00:10:48.565
So I'm that parent.

00:10:48.565 --> 00:10:52.523
That's like jamming my baby onto the breast as soon as their mouth is open.

00:10:53.639 --> 00:11:12.923
And yeah, the rest of the breastfeeding journey was fine, but as a postpartum mom who was reflecting on her labor and pregnancy, I had realized that my mother, my bonus mom, being so quiet in the space, I really wanted to be that person for someone else.

00:11:12.923 --> 00:11:21.164
So that's when I started looking into birth work and I was like, looking into, okay, I want to be a midwife, what does it take to be a midwife?

00:11:21.164 --> 00:11:31.548
And then, when I was looking into being a midwife, some article that I found was like well, if you are interested in being a midwife, you should try being a doula first, because of the on call life and like all this stuff.

00:11:31.548 --> 00:11:32.744
And I was like, what's a doula?

00:11:32.744 --> 00:11:34.349
What the heck is a doula?

00:11:34.349 --> 00:11:37.730
And so I look it up and I'm like, oh cool, let me start there.

00:11:37.730 --> 00:11:39.485
You know, I don't need any medical training.

00:11:39.485 --> 00:11:50.250
It's something that seems tangible to me right now, because the training that you get or at least the training that I got at the time was just a weekend smash course kind of training.

00:11:50.250 --> 00:11:52.086
And so I was like, cool, I'll do that.

00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:57.548
And so I took the training, and my daughter was one by the time.

00:11:57.548 --> 00:12:00.212
I took the training and it was awesome.

00:12:00.212 --> 00:12:02.303
I had a lot of fun, I learned a lot.

00:12:02.303 --> 00:12:07.759
I felt like I was the birth guru after taking this weekend.

00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:10.067
Course, you know, I was like I know exactly what to do.

00:12:10.067 --> 00:12:20.477
But I feel like the reason why I felt that way was because I have always had this instinct of helping others, like when I was in college when I first found out I was pregnant with my daughter.

00:12:20.477 --> 00:12:24.530
I actually wanted to take pre-rex for nursing because I wanted to be an OB nurse.

00:12:24.530 --> 00:12:26.326
Like I wanted to be on the labor and delivery ward.

00:12:26.326 --> 00:12:29.469
And that changed things because I couldn't do that.

00:12:29.469 --> 00:12:30.725
I was too sick and everything.

00:12:30.725 --> 00:12:32.806
In my first trimester I was like I ain't doing this.

00:12:32.806 --> 00:12:42.250
So I leaned into taking the easier classes because I still just wanted to make go towards the degree rather than pausing and stopping and not being in school.

00:12:42.250 --> 00:12:45.746
So my daughter was one when I took the doula training.

00:12:45.746 --> 00:12:49.504
But I didn't take my first client until about two years later.

00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:52.027
And yeah, I was trained as a doula.

00:12:52.027 --> 00:12:53.306
I was super immersed in birth.

00:12:53.306 --> 00:12:58.303
I was doing like all of these doula meet and greets and like talking with other doulas, like what is it like?

00:12:58.303 --> 00:13:00.687
Like how are you running your business and all of this stuff.

00:13:00.687 --> 00:13:09.525
And, of course, I was like begging my older sisters to have kids and they didn't back then, like hurry up and have a kid so I can help you.

00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:15.672
And so I was in a class and I had found out that one of my classmates was pregnant.

00:13:15.672 --> 00:13:19.409
She was a friend of mine and I was like, oh my God, this might be weird, but can I be your doula?

00:13:19.409 --> 00:13:21.366
You know, like can I please be your doula?

00:13:21.366 --> 00:13:22.585
And she was like, oh, what's a doula?

00:13:22.585 --> 00:13:29.205
And then so we get into the whole doula thing and the birth conversations and she talks about what her first birth was like, and then I support her with her second.

00:13:29.205 --> 00:13:37.869
It was like when I ended up, so I actually didn't even end up making it to her actual birth, because she birthed really fast.

00:13:37.869 --> 00:13:43.611
Her first birth she ended up birthing in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:53.265
And her second birth was faster than that and she was her husband, was talking to me and texting me and was like, hey, she's having some contractions and things.

00:13:53.265 --> 00:14:00.870
And I was like, okay with being my first client, I'm like ask her these things, and like she's in labor, me not knowing like how far in labor she is.

00:14:00.870 --> 00:14:05.533
English wasn't her first language and so it was more of just like trying to navigate the whole.

00:14:05.533 --> 00:14:08.546
When should I come, you know, because I don't want to be like, okay, I'm coming now.

00:14:08.546 --> 00:14:21.259
And so she, he's on the phone with me and he's like she's pushing in the bathtub right now and I have a feeling I'm about to catch a baby.

00:14:21.259 --> 00:14:24.639
And I was like, okay, where do you want me to meet you?

00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:27.216
Like, do you want me to meet you at home?

00:14:27.216 --> 00:14:29.437
Do you want, are you gonna go to the hospital?

00:14:29.437 --> 00:14:32.154
Like, cause this is, they did not plan on having a home birth, right.

00:14:32.154 --> 00:14:35.197
And so he's like just meet us here at home.

00:14:35.197 --> 00:14:41.014
And I'm like, okay, cause I'm like 15 minutes away, right, I'm thinking he knows what he's talking about, he knows it's fun.

00:14:41.014 --> 00:14:47.837
So as I'm heading to their house, he calls me and he's like actually, the baby's here, I called 911, just meet us at the hospital.

00:14:47.837 --> 00:14:50.277
I was like, all right, so I did that.

00:14:50.951 --> 00:15:02.876
And but it was so awesome because I could tell that, even though I was really new at being a doula, as she prepped for this birth, she knew more about what to expect because of the conversations that we were having.

00:15:02.876 --> 00:15:21.135
And when I saw her, she was like holding her baby and being rolled out of the ambulance and she was just smiling, she was just beaming, like she was just so happy because she was proud of her birth, like she wasn't scared cause we were talking about her previous birth, when she was scared cause she was alone.

00:15:21.135 --> 00:15:31.179
And then we talked about it and then her husband was with her this time and so, even though it didn't go as planned, she was happy and that felt good as being my first doula client.

00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:34.259
So after experiencing that I was like hooked.

00:15:34.259 --> 00:15:35.755
I was like who else has had babies?

00:15:35.755 --> 00:15:38.658
Let me get up in these doula programs and all that stuff.

00:15:38.658 --> 00:15:45.956
So I ended up signing on and being a contracted doula here in Seattle, washington, and it was super awesome.

00:15:45.975 --> 00:15:58.774
The program was great and it made it easy as a parent of young kids to get clients, because what you would do is you would just put up your availability and clients would look at your profile and they would say, oh, she's available in my due date free gin, you know.

00:15:58.774 --> 00:16:03.820
And then we could talk, we can interview, say yes or no, hook up, and that'd be fine.

00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:25.217
And then the money went through the program rather than directly to me, so I didn't have to worry about necessarily having my own contract at the time and so it was a whole thing, and so that was my immersion into birth work, and fast forward to a couple of years later, I felt like being a birth doula wasn't enough, because I originally wanted to become a midwife.

00:16:25.217 --> 00:16:36.576
And so I'm over here trying to figure out OK, I just finished college, what can I do to get deeper into birth work, because one day I want to be a midwife?

00:16:36.576 --> 00:16:41.496
But what midwifery program can I actually realistically partake in?

00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:53.740
Because midwifery programs are intense and I was still a young mom and I had I think it was a three-year-old and I was still balancing everything that was on my plate.

00:16:53.740 --> 00:17:14.795
And I very quickly found out, after having my daughter, that everything that I wanted to do as an individual outside of being a mother was put on the back burner, slash sidelines, and every single thing I wanted to do needed to be completed or accomplished around everybody else's schedule rather than my schedule being the primary schedule.

00:17:14.795 --> 00:17:29.755
So even when I was still in college and trying to finish up college, the classes I chose to take had to be based off of when I could have child care, and so I was happy that I figured out something, because all the classes I took were super random, but it led to a degree, and so I was happy about that.

00:17:29.755 --> 00:17:32.659
So me trying to find a midwifery program that would work.

00:17:32.659 --> 00:17:37.472
Of course I looked into Bastier University and they have a master's program, but I had a ready.

00:17:37.472 --> 00:17:50.314
I think I was in my last quarter of school when I looked into their prereqs and I would have had to be in school for another solid three years just to get the prereqs and I was like I can't do that, that's too much, it's not realistic.

00:17:50.314 --> 00:17:58.237
And so I was looking into other programs, talking to other community midwives, and they pointed me in the direction of an online school program called the Midwives College of Utah.

00:17:58.237 --> 00:18:09.740
So it's an online program and then you end up doing your testing and stuff in person in Utah, but everything like your practicums and your clinicals are in your local region most of the time.

00:18:09.849 --> 00:18:18.836
Sometimes people have to move to go to a place that has more options, but I was lucky and fortunate enough to be in the Pacific Northwest, where it's like flourishing over here.

00:18:18.836 --> 00:18:31.913
There's a ton of birth centers and a ton of birth workers over here, and so, as I was looking for this program that I was trying to get into, I was working at Bastia University, which is why I looked at their program.

00:18:31.913 --> 00:18:39.699
I was working at Bastia University in the Simkin Center, which is where I took my doula training, because I was like I want to be in birth work but I don't know how.

00:18:39.699 --> 00:18:46.339
So I'm like where can I go when I can still contribute financially An admin job at a place that deals with birth in some way?

00:18:46.339 --> 00:19:01.819
So I did that, took all the trainings I could while working, because it was a discounted price or I got it for free if I was the helper of the course that weekend and then so, once I was doing more things with work and in birth work, I ended up looking for a birth assistant.

00:19:01.890 --> 00:19:09.314
Training, which was the middle ground between a birth doula and a midwife, was birth assistant, because you do some clinical things but you don't do it all.

00:19:09.314 --> 00:19:13.955
You do the fetal heart tones or infant heart tones, depending on the training you do.

00:19:13.955 --> 00:19:19.954
You can actually administer vitamin K or pitocin and you get hands on, you could touch the baby and stuff.

00:19:19.954 --> 00:19:31.896
That was fun and so I did that training and then I think it was a couple of weeks before I actually went physically to the training I actually found out that I was pregnant with my son, and so my daughter is three at the time.

00:19:31.896 --> 00:19:36.517
I find out that I'm pregnant and I'm like oh snap, I feel like this is a now or never thing.

00:19:37.190 --> 00:19:56.873
So right after I took this birth assistant training, I started talking to local birth centers about how I can get to births and what I need to do in order to accomplish getting certified as a birth assistant before my baby's born, because I want to get to birth and I also.

00:19:56.873 --> 00:20:08.179
After the training that I took, they told me well, you have to get 10 births, but the kicker is, all 10 of these births that you attend have to be free of charge because you're not certified.

00:20:08.179 --> 00:20:10.616
And so I'm over here like what the heck?

00:20:10.616 --> 00:20:11.259
What do you mean?

00:20:11.259 --> 00:20:14.571
I got a free like how long are these births as a birth doula?

00:20:14.571 --> 00:20:17.299
Like I know, births are super long, you know.

00:20:17.299 --> 00:20:21.455
And so for me to be like OK, I got to do 10 births for free.

00:20:21.455 --> 00:20:31.661
The only thing that made it really different was that birth assistants tended to get called near the end when they thought that birth was going to happen within the next couple of hours.

00:20:31.661 --> 00:20:34.058
So I'm there assisting the midwife.

00:20:34.058 --> 00:20:42.615
Sometimes that would come in and the birth would be precipitous, so I'd be called at the same time as the midwife, or I'd be called in after the midwife was with this client for 24, 27 hours.

00:20:42.615 --> 00:20:44.255
It really just depends.

00:20:44.255 --> 00:20:45.493
But it was awesome.

00:20:45.493 --> 00:20:47.297
I got all 10 births accomplished.

00:20:47.349 --> 00:21:03.630
The last birth I went to, I was super pregnant, to the point to where, when I was going to these births and these people would be pushing out their babies, I would be having sympathetic contractions and having let down and all of this stuff, because I was super pregnant, about to have a baby myself.

00:21:03.630 --> 00:21:13.589
I think the last birth I went to I was 38 weeks, which was fun and challenging, but it was fun to have conversations, because after people had their babies, they're like oh my god, I didn't realize that you were pregnant.

00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:15.698
And then they would be like how far longer are you?

00:21:15.698 --> 00:21:16.874
Because they're in their zone.

00:21:16.874 --> 00:21:19.155
By the time they meet me, they don't even know who's in the room.

00:21:19.155 --> 00:21:21.698
And then afterwards I'm like can I take your baby's heart tones?

00:21:21.698 --> 00:21:22.748
And they're like, oh yeah, sure.

00:21:22.748 --> 00:21:24.415
Oh my god, you're half a belly.

00:21:24.415 --> 00:21:26.836
And just the conversations went from there.

00:21:27.089 --> 00:21:35.236
So when I was pregnant, though, I also applied for midwifery school, and then I got in because I was like it's now or never I'm going to get into this birth thing or not.

00:21:35.236 --> 00:21:52.690
So I eventually had my son and I decided to have a home birth with him, because by the time I was pregnant with my son, I had learned so much more about birth whether that be birth centers, home births, all this stuff so I was looking into becoming a out of hospital midwife.

00:21:52.690 --> 00:21:54.234
So I was like, well, let me just have a home birth.

00:21:54.234 --> 00:21:55.799
I love birth, let me do that.

00:21:55.799 --> 00:22:00.493
I'm healthy, I'm active, I'm young still, I was 24.

00:22:00.493 --> 00:22:02.738
And so I was like, ok, let's do this.

00:22:02.738 --> 00:22:13.912
And the care that I received that pregnancy was so different than the care that I received with my first, because my in-hospital experiences with my providers they're shorter appointments and then my out of hospital experience with my provider.

00:22:13.952 --> 00:22:16.096
This time around, the midwife would come to my house.

00:22:16.096 --> 00:22:22.996
We would just have conversations and appointments would be like an hour, sometimes two hours long because we would be talking so much.

00:22:22.996 --> 00:22:24.375
And that was amazing.

00:22:24.375 --> 00:22:30.357
And I had the intention, a very strong intention this time to know everybody that was coming into my birth space.

00:22:30.357 --> 00:22:36.057
And, in addition to that, I wanted every person that was in my birth space to be someone that looked like me.

00:22:36.057 --> 00:22:39.839
So I made sure that I found a midwife of color.

00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:43.078
I also made sure that that midwife had a student of color.

00:22:43.078 --> 00:23:07.798
If they had a student, I would only really want them in the space if they were of color, because I want to be able to look around the room when I'm in labor and feel a connection and I'm not saying that I can't feel a connection to people that aren't of color, it's just like in my vulnerability I want to be able to just feel that and I really wanted this kind of ancestral or spiritual vibe in my space the second time around.

00:23:08.170 --> 00:23:11.798
I was literally about to say that I was calling on the presence of your ancestors.

00:23:12.210 --> 00:23:14.258
Yes, exactly, I really wanted that.

00:23:14.258 --> 00:23:16.317
I wanted to look around and see that and feel that.

00:23:16.317 --> 00:23:18.538
And so everything went great.

00:23:18.538 --> 00:23:21.239
I was in complete denial that I was even in labor.

00:23:21.239 --> 00:23:25.597
I even got a call from a midwife and they were like, hey, do you want to come to this birth?

00:23:25.597 --> 00:23:27.976
And I was like, let me just talk to my husband, I'm a little uncomfortable today.

00:23:27.976 --> 00:23:28.878
And they're like, yeah, no problem.

00:23:28.878 --> 00:23:29.681
And then I talked to my husband.

00:23:29.681 --> 00:23:33.015
He's like, babe, you said you're uncomfortable, maybe you should just stay.

00:23:33.015 --> 00:23:35.715
You're super pregnant, you're past your due date right now.

00:23:35.715 --> 00:23:40.672
Because I was two days post-states, he was like you're too pregnant, just stay home.

00:23:40.672 --> 00:23:47.397
And I was like, fine, I'll stay, because I was so used to go, go going and just working and little did I know I was actually in labor.

00:23:47.509 --> 00:23:54.257
Those discomforts were early labor pains, and so I'm in denial that I'm in labor and things start going.

00:23:54.257 --> 00:24:02.476
And I'm literally in denial so long that people are starting to hear that I'm having labor signs, like my husband's texting people.

00:24:02.476 --> 00:24:06.513
I let my midwife know like, hey, I'm just starting to feel stuff, just want to let you know.

00:24:06.513 --> 00:24:08.015
She let her student know.

00:24:08.015 --> 00:24:09.074
I called my doula.

00:24:09.074 --> 00:24:14.915
I did not have a doula the first time around, but I made sure that I had one the second time around and, yes, they were also of color.

00:24:14.915 --> 00:24:23.614
So I let all my people know and I would say I was probably maybe two hours into my labor when my dad called me.

00:24:23.755 --> 00:24:32.657
Two or three hours into my labor when my dad called me, when I was starting to get the idea that yeah, ok, I'm probably in labor, he called me and he was like all right, yo, what's happening?

00:24:32.657 --> 00:24:33.795
Are you about to have this baby today?

00:24:33.795 --> 00:24:35.453
I'm about to go to Linwood.

00:24:35.453 --> 00:24:38.173
It's 45 minutes north and you are south, like what's happening?

00:24:38.173 --> 00:24:39.414
And it's traffic time.

00:24:39.414 --> 00:24:41.737
You know, it's like 4 PM or something like that.

00:24:41.737 --> 00:24:51.179
And I was like dad, it's fine, even if I am in labor, it's going to be a while, do what you need to do, just be on call to come back whenever we call you.

00:24:51.179 --> 00:24:52.634
And he's like, ok, cool.

00:24:53.210 --> 00:25:01.163
And so literally 10 minutes after I get off the phone with my father, my water breaks and shit hits the fan.

00:25:01.163 --> 00:25:02.776
My labor completely changes.

00:25:02.776 --> 00:25:21.935
My husband is terrified because we're at home and he is just alone sitting with our three-year-old at the time staring at me like are you OK as I'm in the bathtub, and I'm like huh, you know, just like feeling all the things, and he's like, oh my god, because again, he's terrified of blood.

00:25:21.935 --> 00:25:23.214
There's no blood at this point.

00:25:23.214 --> 00:25:34.198
But also, being a birth worker, when my water broke, I was like crap, it's pea green, there's some aconium in here, and I was like I really don't want to go to the hospital.

00:25:34.198 --> 00:25:37.018
I don't want to get this far to have to go to the hospital.

00:25:37.018 --> 00:25:46.176
And so I text a photo of my panty liner to my midwife and she's like it seems like it's safe enough, let me get there, we'll figure it out and go from there.

00:25:46.829 --> 00:25:48.998
So my labor picks up super quickly.

00:25:48.998 --> 00:25:58.474
I'm in a complete primal mode and I am just doing the labor dance, doing all the things Love that my doula showed up super quick because she was already nearby.

00:25:58.474 --> 00:26:07.980
My midwife made it barely Well, when I say barely, I mean like she made it and I had the baby, my son, less than an hour later.

00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:10.778
So it was like very things were moving.

00:26:10.778 --> 00:26:22.180
One thing that I also remember is me telling my doula because I went inside my bathroom tub where I could control the heat of the water and I was like wait until the noise changes in the faucet.

00:26:22.180 --> 00:26:23.133
That's when it's hot water.

00:26:23.133 --> 00:26:26.637
I don't know what it is Like when you change the position of it.

00:26:26.637 --> 00:26:32.616
I don't know if this is only my house, I don't know the sound of the water changes, maybe it's more irrigated or something, I have no idea.

00:26:32.616 --> 00:26:36.519
And then it gets hot and I was like, yeah, I just remember saying that to her.

00:26:36.690 --> 00:26:40.295
And then it was super awesome because my three-year-old was super involved.

00:26:40.295 --> 00:26:44.240
She was giving me water, trying to hold my hand.

00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:53.695
At one point I was asking for a hand to squeeze and she puts her tiny little hand in mine and I'm like baby, I'm so sorry, I don't want to break your hand, I need a grown-up's hand.

00:26:53.695 --> 00:26:55.035
And she's like OK, mommy.

00:26:55.035 --> 00:27:07.076
And so she just sits there and rubs my shoulder and my hair that I have so little of, because I decided to shave my head bald during my pregnancy, because apparently I was going through some emotions.

00:27:09.634 --> 00:27:23.178
And then I remember my mom coming and she was so upset because she had stayed at our house for a week before this day, because she's like I am going to be here for this baby, because she missed the first birth of my daughter.

00:27:23.178 --> 00:27:24.673
She's like I'm going to be here.

00:27:24.673 --> 00:27:31.397
And so she basically lived with us for two weeks and she's like I have to go to work today.

00:27:31.397 --> 00:27:34.499
If you have this baby, I'm going to be so mad at you.

00:27:34.499 --> 00:27:50.780
And, of course, the day she leaves and goes to work, I am in labor and she ends up finding a way to come back to the house and I remember her getting there because she touched me and I felt this immediate connection spiritually.

00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:56.154
But one of the things that I felt right away was how cold her hands were, and I loved it.

00:27:56.154 --> 00:27:57.673
I needed it.

00:27:57.673 --> 00:28:00.196
I needed it so bad.

00:28:00.196 --> 00:28:06.849
And so she was touching me and her hands were cold and I was like, oh my god, yes, please, you know, but fast forward a little bit.

00:28:06.849 --> 00:28:07.794
Birth was great.

00:28:07.794 --> 00:28:09.115
Things were moving along.

00:28:09.115 --> 00:28:16.199
I ended up birthing my son in the bathtub and it was glorious and I was so proud of myself.

00:28:16.199 --> 00:28:23.295
It was intense, but it was not euphoric, but it was an intense pain that I knew was temporary, that was being productive.

00:28:23.295 --> 00:28:25.150
I did not feel like I was suffering.

00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:27.097
I was coping well through it all and it felt great.

00:28:27.390 --> 00:28:35.478
Postpartum comes, everything is fine, and my doula brain is like you should eat something, and so I asked someone to get me a banana.

00:28:35.478 --> 00:28:44.338
I started eating this banana and right before I ate the banana, I birthed my placenta and there was a shit ton of blood pulled behind my placenta.

00:28:44.338 --> 00:28:48.017
And that's when I was like, oh, I should probably eat something because my body needs something.

00:28:48.017 --> 00:29:00.377
And then I go to eat this banana and then I pass out, because I like to think that everything that was keeping me stable changed direction and went to go digest this banana that I just ate and I passed out.

00:29:00.377 --> 00:29:04.471
And so it took two what are those called the little?

00:29:04.471 --> 00:29:06.237
I don't know if you guys actually have them.

00:29:06.237 --> 00:29:07.220
In the hospital, you might.

00:29:07.220 --> 00:29:14.327
In out of hospital settings there are these little like kind of pill shaped plastic paper.

00:29:14.327 --> 00:29:19.438
You wrapped things and they're full of ammonia.

00:29:19.438 --> 00:29:22.788
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, the ammonia.

00:29:22.788 --> 00:29:26.647
It took two of those to wake me up and one of them.

00:29:26.888 --> 00:29:31.763
Usually people are like oh you know like in there, alive the stink, yeah, the stink's so bad.

00:29:32.105 --> 00:29:35.845
It's like those like gym salts that people are sniffing nowadays.

00:29:35.845 --> 00:29:40.865
It like usually with one pot, like people come back to life, they become conscious again.

00:29:40.865 --> 00:29:53.845
It took two pops of those which was concerning, and then it wasn't long before I passed out again and then you know, I'm still bleeding, but it's not like I, I am not conscious.

00:29:53.845 --> 00:29:58.670
So, like the point from that I'm saying from here on is kind of like perspectives of what I've heard.

00:29:58.670 --> 00:30:00.796
You know, because I'm I'm so out of it.

00:30:00.796 --> 00:30:11.201
Some of the parts that I do remember is seeing blood and then seeing my bathwater be drained out because it was looking like too much blood and so they were trying to get an estimate of how much blood it was.

00:30:11.201 --> 00:30:15.816
So they drained it and so if it continued to fill up, they would be able to have a good estimate.

00:30:15.816 --> 00:30:17.490
That was my thought process.

00:30:17.490 --> 00:30:19.636
Well, thinking of it afterwards.

00:30:19.636 --> 00:30:24.855
But one thing that I would probably change about this whole birth situation is getting a hep lock.

00:30:24.855 --> 00:30:34.865
Because I opted out of a hep lock because I had an IV my first labor and I didn't really need it because everything was so quick and smooth and I felt like it was unnecessary.

00:30:34.865 --> 00:30:41.814
So this time around I was like I don't want anything of interventions about to be butt ass naked in my house, like I don't care, I just want to be.

00:30:41.814 --> 00:30:42.845
I want to do what my body does.

00:30:42.845 --> 00:30:44.825
It's going to be fine.

00:30:45.266 --> 00:30:49.616
If I had opted into a hep lock, the next step would not have needed to happen.

00:30:49.616 --> 00:30:56.667
So because I opted out of having an IV hep lock, I ended up passing out again.

00:30:56.667 --> 00:30:58.815
Er, 911 was called, everything was called.

00:30:58.815 --> 00:31:11.060
All of these ambulance and fire people, firemen and women were coming to my house to help save me, right, and, of course, everybody's freaking out and I passed out twice before they came.

00:31:11.060 --> 00:31:11.845
They came.

00:31:11.845 --> 00:31:17.351
Thank God it was a woman that came in first, because I was completely naked and I felt good to just see a woman.

00:31:17.351 --> 00:31:21.865
I remember her blonde hair, fair skin, super strong looking.

00:31:21.865 --> 00:31:23.371
I was like you're dope.

00:31:23.371 --> 00:31:36.500
She like helps lift me out of the tub because I need to get out of the tub and she helps cover me up and then, as soon as I lean over her to get into the chair, I pass out again and so I'm just fainting because I'm losing so much blood.

00:31:36.740 --> 00:31:51.845
To shorten this part of the story up, I ended up going into the ambulance and getting transferred to the hospital and when I'm in the ER, I'm only there for three hours, but I did not need any blood transfusion or anything like that, I just needed fluid.

00:31:51.845 --> 00:32:09.805
So, looking back, if I opted for a hep lock and got fluid throughout my labor, I likely would not have ended up needing to transfer and my provider, my midwife, could have gotten pittosin into me faster than through intramuscular, you know, like through an IM stick.

00:32:09.805 --> 00:32:15.865
So she did it a couple of times, from what I remember, but I think I lost about 800 cc's of blood at home.

00:32:15.865 --> 00:32:20.865
So I was really upset at myself because I wanted it to be perfect.

00:32:21.186 --> 00:32:27.845
I wanted to prove everybody wrong that said home birth is dangerous and home birth isn't cool or not that it isn't cool.

00:32:27.845 --> 00:32:36.845
But, like you know, I was just like trying to prove myself yet again, because the first time I did have an unmitigated birth and I rubbed it in everybody's faces because I was like you thought that I couldn't.

00:32:36.845 --> 00:32:42.431
And then this time I was like I'm going to have a home birth and I wanted to rub it in everybody's faces but I couldn't.

00:32:42.431 --> 00:32:45.116
I couldn't do it, it's so unsatisfying.

00:32:45.477 --> 00:32:49.845
Yeah, I mean, I felt so down and I was like, why me?

00:32:49.845 --> 00:32:50.307
Like?

00:32:50.307 --> 00:32:51.230
Why did this happen to me?

00:32:51.230 --> 00:33:04.756
My midwife and I were super, super connected and conversing a lot throughout my care about how I was anemic during my pregnancy the first time and some in my second, but by the time I had my blood draw last time, like my numbers were going up.

00:33:04.756 --> 00:33:11.731
But with that being said, it had been a couple of weeks since my numbers were drawn, like from when I went into labor.

00:33:11.731 --> 00:33:13.632
So numbers change pretty quickly.

00:33:13.632 --> 00:33:15.845
I feel like they go down faster than they go up.

00:33:15.845 --> 00:33:24.865
So I was anemic and the level that I was at with anemia was like on the bridge line when my numbers were drawn for safety of home birth.

00:33:24.865 --> 00:33:34.738
So I'm assuming that my numbers went down and I was no longer safe to have a home birth and I hemorrhaged and that led to the result of my postpartum, or my immediate postpartum.

00:33:35.385 --> 00:33:38.692
Breastfeeding with him was totally fine, super good.

00:33:38.692 --> 00:33:41.397
He handled my big nipples, no problem, right.

00:33:41.397 --> 00:33:48.730
He did have a tongue tie without me realizing that he had a tongue tie and I didn't notice until I actually had my third, but that was a whole other thing.

00:33:48.730 --> 00:33:54.723
Yeah, I did experience some postpartum depression with him and I didn't experience it with my first.

00:33:54.723 --> 00:34:07.865
And I also kind of put it to the seasons a little bit, because my daughter was born in the summertime, so it was sunny, and then my son was born in November and so it was very dark.

00:34:07.865 --> 00:34:09.864
We did not have very long days.

00:34:10.929 --> 00:34:17.855
I remember being snippy with my husband because he doesn't like when people can see in our house when it's dark outside, if our windows are open, obviously.

00:34:17.855 --> 00:34:22.697
But I snapped at him and I was like no, the sky is purple, it's not black, leave it open.

00:34:22.697 --> 00:34:24.851
I need as much sun as I can get Right.

00:34:24.851 --> 00:34:41.556
Not that whatever sun was coming in at that time was helping me by any means, but my nights were blending with my days because the daylight span of the actual 24 hour period was so low that I wanted my brain to click that it has been another day.

00:34:42.106 --> 00:34:47.487
I didn't even realize that it was postpartum depression because I wasn't like officially diagnosed or anything.

00:34:47.487 --> 00:34:53.791
But I didn't realize it until I was one year postpartum and I was like that's why I was feeling that way.

00:34:53.791 --> 00:34:56.994
But I was super communicative with the people around me at that time.

00:34:56.994 --> 00:34:59.952
I wasn't like I'm depressed but I was like, yeah, I'm just not.

00:34:59.952 --> 00:35:03.188
I'm not feeling it Like, I love my son, I love my kids.

00:35:03.188 --> 00:35:08.393
But it seems a little bit harder this time and I just checked it up to having two instead of one.

00:35:08.905 --> 00:35:19.452
Until I feel that, because post-perniate eluded and anxiety disorders just feel different, it's not like I'm sad because you have this wonderful thing in your life that you love so much, but you don't feel right either.

00:35:19.452 --> 00:35:24.277
I had a lot of intrusive thoughts and I had no idea that that was a thing.

00:35:24.277 --> 00:35:25.568
That was just normal.

00:35:26.704 --> 00:35:30.123
I had intrusive thoughts too and I was like seeing shit.

00:35:30.123 --> 00:35:38.956
I was like up in the middle of the night by myself with a crying baby and it could also be the fact that I was exhausted but I was like did a person just walk past my window?

00:35:38.956 --> 00:35:41.152
And I'm like, no, that's impossible.

00:35:41.152 --> 00:35:42.509
I'm on the second floor of my house.

00:35:42.509 --> 00:35:43.652
What's happening?

00:35:43.652 --> 00:35:49.797
And so I was not 100% myself and who really is postpartum?

00:35:49.797 --> 00:35:55.911
Because there's so much that you're sacrificing as a parent but also just trying to get used to and gather and hold on to.

00:35:55.911 --> 00:36:07.891
It's such a transition, it's such a transitional period in your life and I use the word transition a lot when I talk about anything in my life, because I feel like I am in this constant transition.

00:36:07.891 --> 00:36:12.552
I'm never reaching the end and I'm always like, oh, this is really hard right now because I'm in transition.

00:36:12.552 --> 00:36:16.231
It could be because of a birth worker and that's like my word of choice.

00:36:16.385 --> 00:36:21.376
So six months postpartum, I actually started midwifery school.

00:36:21.376 --> 00:36:25.896
I started my midwifery program and everything was handy dandy.

00:36:25.896 --> 00:36:29.550
I felt like everything was going great and I was still birth assisting.

00:36:29.550 --> 00:36:40.851
I started going back to births around the time that my son was about six months old and I kind of just picked up a new groove and started doing things again and he was born in 2017.

00:36:40.851 --> 00:36:46.076
So fast forward a little bit to 2019, 2020.

00:36:47.144 --> 00:36:49.253
Between those two years, I was like heavy in the birth space.

00:36:49.253 --> 00:36:50.590
I was taking doula clients.

00:36:50.590 --> 00:37:11.072
I was also student midwife because I needed some kind of income, but as a student I wasn't making money, because you're a student, you're learning, and so I would be like cool, my thing is being in the birth space, so like I'm either going to be losing sleep because I'm at a birth with a doula client, or I'm going to be losing sleep because I'm at a birth as a birth assistant, or I'm going to be losing sleep because I'm at a birth as a student midwife.

00:37:11.072 --> 00:37:14.253
So I just needed it all to kind of line up as much as possible.

00:37:14.253 --> 00:37:27.373
It was hard to balance, but I was fortunate enough to have someone that I could partner with as a birth doula while doing these things, and so we would split call in my doula section of my life.

00:37:27.373 --> 00:37:38.255
Instead of being on call for doula clients all the time, it was more of, I got to split that with someone else and so I was able to still pick up clinical births and birth assistant births.

00:37:38.255 --> 00:37:41.532
So that was my way of having an income while being a student.

00:37:41.532 --> 00:37:45.793
Retrospectively, and while I was in it, I realized that it was very rough.

00:37:45.793 --> 00:37:54.309
But retrospectively I realized how much I actually missed in my life at that point and it was incredibly hard.

00:37:55.045 --> 00:38:02.798
And then so when 2020 happened COVID happened at the end of 2020, I was still in school.

00:38:02.798 --> 00:38:07.630
I was about two and a half years into my four year program, so I was a little bit more than halfway through.

00:38:07.630 --> 00:38:11.434
I was barely starting to do the primary student things.

00:38:11.434 --> 00:38:15.114
So I was starting to sit with clients and do their entire prenatal visit.

00:38:15.114 --> 00:38:17.172
I was doing all the blood draws.

00:38:17.172 --> 00:38:20.554
I was doing vaginal exams, cervical exams.

00:38:20.554 --> 00:38:21.949
I was doing all the things.

00:38:21.949 --> 00:38:26.215
I even caught two babies, which was super fun and awesome.

00:38:26.215 --> 00:38:31.369
But then the Black Lives Matter movement happened and it was insane.

00:38:32.425 --> 00:38:41.753
That whole time in my life was kind of a little bit of a blur because I was struggling mentally with how fucked up the world was.

00:38:41.753 --> 00:38:44.132
I was struggling so hard.

00:38:44.132 --> 00:39:00.115
And then I was studying some really intense classes that were based on how to deal with trauma or how to guide your clients through trauma, as well as just taking a really heavy academic course, because it's like one of the foundational courses of midwifery it's called prenatal two or something.

00:39:00.115 --> 00:39:04.969
You know just how to do your visits and how to be a midwife, basically, and so I was completely overwhelmed.

00:39:04.969 --> 00:39:11.650
And around the same time, public schools changed to online and I just couldn't do it all.

00:39:11.650 --> 00:39:23.974
I had no one to watch my kiddos when I was in clinic or at birth, and so sometimes I would take my kids with me to clinic and they would sit in the back room all day, and it was a lot to balance and I just couldn't do it.

00:39:23.974 --> 00:39:31.498
So I had to make the extremely, extremely, extremely hard decision to withdraw from midwifery school.

00:39:31.498 --> 00:39:41.610
I did not want to, because I felt so close to being at the end, and I have since spoken to people that were in my class that are like full on midwives and I'm like, damn, that could have been me.

00:39:41.610 --> 00:39:44.447
You know, that could have been me, but it was hard.

00:39:44.447 --> 00:39:54.987
So I withdrew and decided, hey, since I'm not in birth rooms as much anymore I was still a doula and a birth assistant, but not as much let's try to have a baby.

00:39:54.987 --> 00:39:56.733
Right, let's try to have a baby.

00:39:56.733 --> 00:39:58.097
So I took my birth control out.

00:39:58.284 --> 00:40:13.480
I ended up finding a job as an admin and found out I was pregnant, and I actually switched jobs twice while pregnant, which was interesting because I ended up resigning from a birth organization that I no longer aligned with.

00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:23.331
They were very they were very narcissistic and racist, even though it was ran by a person of color which I really hated.

00:40:23.331 --> 00:40:24.253
It was really hard.

00:40:24.253 --> 00:40:35.672
And then I ended up going into the next birthy thing that I could find, which was just supporting a lactation clinic as an admin, and so I did that and then realized that was way too far for me.

00:40:35.672 --> 00:40:44.416
So because it was in Lake City and I live in Auburn, so I was driving like an hour and a half every day too far, too much, couldn't do it while pregnant.

00:40:44.416 --> 00:40:45.606
I ended up.

00:40:45.606 --> 00:40:47.793
I also didn't feel super valued there.

00:40:47.793 --> 00:40:50.052
I felt like I wasn't really needed.

00:40:50.425 --> 00:40:58.269
So I went and got an admin job at a birth center that was really close to my house and I was like dope, this is great, let's do this.

00:40:58.269 --> 00:40:59.253
And pregnant, that's cool.

00:40:59.253 --> 00:41:01.085
I love these midwives Like.

00:41:01.085 --> 00:41:02.864
This is the birth center that I was at.

00:41:02.864 --> 00:41:06.335
That was kind of like a really, really big foundation for my birth work.

00:41:06.335 --> 00:41:08.632
Like a lot of my birth assistant births were there.

00:41:08.632 --> 00:41:10.311
A lot of my birth doula births were there.

00:41:10.311 --> 00:41:18.335
If it wasn't at a hospital, it was either at this birth center or associated I would say, 98% of the time associated with this birth center for home births.

00:41:18.335 --> 00:41:20.371
So they were like my peeps right.

00:41:20.445 --> 00:41:24.170
So I was like cool, I can do this as much as this third time around.

00:41:24.170 --> 00:41:26.014
I really badly want to have a home birth.

00:41:26.014 --> 00:41:27.971
My husband was not about it.

00:41:27.971 --> 00:41:33.835
I wanted to have this redemption home birth this time around and say, oh my gosh, I did it, I actually did it.

00:41:33.835 --> 00:41:35.751
I'll just have an IV lock this time.

00:41:35.751 --> 00:41:45.025
My husband was like, babe, I don't know, I don't feel comfortable with that, you're the birthing person, but just know I'm not an agreeance.

00:41:45.025 --> 00:41:48.054
And I was like I don't want that energy going into my birth.

00:41:48.054 --> 00:41:53.833
So we ended up choosing a birth center birth and it just happened to be the birth center that I worked at, which was handy dandy.

00:41:53.833 --> 00:41:55.389
It was amazing.

00:41:55.389 --> 00:41:57.710
Actually it was still during COVID time.

00:41:57.885 --> 00:42:06.197
So I wanted things to line up just so because if I ended up going into labor at night, I would be able to have my party birthday I wanted.

00:42:06.197 --> 00:42:17.757
But if I ended up going into labor during the day when the clinic was full or it was clinic days, I was only allowed to have two people present with me and I was like I can't do that, that's too hard.

00:42:17.757 --> 00:42:20.418
So, anyways, ended up going into labor at night.

00:42:20.418 --> 00:42:25.916
I had my midwife, who used to be my doula partner, but she is a full-on midwife now.

00:42:25.916 --> 00:42:32.235
She's been a midwife for three years and she was a midwife within her first year of midwifery and I was like you gotta be my midwife.

00:42:32.235 --> 00:42:33.554
I can't imagine anybody else.

00:42:33.554 --> 00:42:34.851
You're like a sister to me.

00:42:34.851 --> 00:42:35.795
Like this is awesome.

00:42:35.795 --> 00:42:36.778
She was great.

00:42:36.778 --> 00:42:41.181
I had her strip my membranes for two days in a row.

00:42:41.181 --> 00:42:43.534
The first time she stripped it I was like cool, things are moving.

00:42:43.534 --> 00:42:44.393
I'm feeling some stuff.

00:42:44.789 --> 00:42:48.898
Let me just say I was also over being pregnant so early in this pregnancy.

00:42:48.898 --> 00:42:50.677
This pregnancy was way more intense.

00:42:50.677 --> 00:42:55.293
I was way more uncomfortable Granted, I'm gonna pull that like everybody else had it worse than me.

00:42:55.293 --> 00:42:57.817
Card, because there were so many other pregnancies.

00:42:57.817 --> 00:43:03.677
Especially as a birth worker, I can see how a lot of other people that were pregnant were worse off or feeling worse than me.

00:43:03.677 --> 00:43:09.355
I wasn't dealing with some of the things they were dealing with but, to validate my own feelings, it was really intense for me.

00:43:09.355 --> 00:43:11.554
It was a very how old were you by then?

00:43:11.554 --> 00:43:13.853
I was how old was.

00:43:13.954 --> 00:43:14.797
I 28?

00:43:14.797 --> 00:43:15.599
Okay, yeah.

00:43:17.010 --> 00:43:18.344
I just feel like the older you get, the harder it gets.

00:43:18.364 --> 00:43:21.900
Yeah, and I felt that you were old, old but you were 18 with your first.

00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:23.215
Yeah, and I felt that.

00:43:23.215 --> 00:43:25.217
I definitely felt it in my body too.

00:43:25.217 --> 00:43:28.818
Like even with my second pregnancy I was like, oh, like I have Brax and Higgs.

00:43:28.818 --> 00:43:33.556
This is like really early on I started having Brax and Higgs, also a birth worker at that time.

00:43:33.809 --> 00:43:38.016
The physicality of that job makes it so much harder to be pregnant.

00:43:38.016 --> 00:43:39.375
Plus, it's your third.

00:43:39.375 --> 00:43:42.574
You've got two other little ones running around Like you're gonna feel like crap.

00:43:42.655 --> 00:43:45.295
And I definitely did Felt like a big old bowl of crap.

00:43:45.295 --> 00:43:48.755
And that was the first pregnancy I experienced lightning crotch.

00:43:48.755 --> 00:43:51.476
Everybody needs to know that lightning crotch is an actual thing.

00:43:51.476 --> 00:43:52.757
Have you heard of lightning crotch before?

00:43:52.757 --> 00:43:56.699
Yes, okay, yeah, lightning crotch is absolutely insane.

00:43:56.829 --> 00:44:11.394
I hated it so much and I started experiencing it about like 25 weeks into my pregnancy and I was like my baby's not even that heavy, but she was tucked in and like deep into my pelvis very early on, and so I'm blaming it on that.

00:44:11.394 --> 00:44:16.476
It got to the point where I was 37 weeks and I was like so over it, to where I asked one of the midwives that I worked with.

00:44:16.476 --> 00:44:22.494
I was like I know that I'm not your client, but can you please, please, just check my cervix and tell me if anything is happening?

00:44:22.494 --> 00:44:25.597
And she was like, yeah, cool, I'll check you, that's fine.

00:44:25.597 --> 00:44:30.378
She's like I don't wanna stimulate things in there, but I'll check you to give you a little peace of mind.

00:44:30.378 --> 00:44:36.418
I was like okay, and then she told me that like my cervix was squishy, but I was completely closed and nothing was happening.

00:44:36.418 --> 00:44:37.393
I was so devastated.

00:44:37.393 --> 00:44:43.731
I was like I'm over this and then fast forward because I was so over wanting to be pregnant.

00:44:44.273 --> 00:44:47.454
I asked my midwife to strip my membranes two days before my due date.

00:44:47.454 --> 00:44:52.815
She stripped my membranes and things were working and I was like, yeah, this is great, I could feel some contractions.

00:44:52.815 --> 00:44:56.619
And then I do things to like mentally prepare for labor.

00:44:56.619 --> 00:45:07.554
And then I lay down and I fall asleep and I wake up the next day and I'm like what, why I wanted to be in labor.

00:45:07.554 --> 00:45:09.375
So bad, this sucks.

00:45:09.375 --> 00:45:16.396
Things were working and when she checked me, I was already like chilling at four centimeters for my first check and I was like, dope, let's do this.

00:45:16.396 --> 00:45:18.998
And so I thought that contractions are really working.

00:45:19.250 --> 00:45:34.710
And so the next day I had her come and strip my membranes again, which was the day before my due date and she strips my membranes and I get from a 4 and 1 half to a 5 and 1 half and I'm like dope, cool, Of course.

00:45:34.710 --> 00:45:37.833
She comes out all the bloody show on her hand like crazy, crazy.

00:45:37.833 --> 00:45:40.097
I was like do your due diligence girl?

00:45:40.097 --> 00:45:42.777
Like fuck me up in there because I'm over this.

00:45:42.777 --> 00:45:45.896
I was like so over it.

00:45:45.896 --> 00:45:48.038
And I know that she is super good at membrane sweeps.

00:45:48.038 --> 00:45:49.876
I have seen the work she has done.

00:45:49.876 --> 00:45:56.994
And so she was like OK, and of course I was like breathing hella hard, squeezing her arm like crazy.

00:45:56.994 --> 00:45:57.978
She's like are you OK?

00:45:57.978 --> 00:46:00.152
I was like just go, come on, just do it, Like go.

00:46:00.152 --> 00:46:05.461
It was a very interesting, very interesting feeling.

00:46:05.461 --> 00:46:07.557
It was painful, absolutely.

00:46:07.557 --> 00:46:08.574
But would I do it again?

00:46:08.574 --> 00:46:10.637
Hell yes, because I was so over being pregnant.

00:46:10.637 --> 00:46:13.259
So that kind of leads to how that turned out.

00:46:13.670 --> 00:46:20.938
I ended up going into labor, but I was having a really hard time because I was scared that I was going to be in denial again.

00:46:20.938 --> 00:46:31.097
And then I was also scared that if I wasn't in denial, it would stall out and not actually be happening, especially since the day before it had stopped.

00:46:31.097 --> 00:46:38.338
So I'm in denial, I'm sitting backwards on the toilet a ton because I want things to progress, and I'm over here thinking I'm vocalizing through these.

00:46:38.338 --> 00:46:42.960
They're coming pretty often, but do I want to pick up everybody?

00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:44.456
At this point it's like 11 PM.

00:46:44.456 --> 00:46:49.097
Do I want to wake everybody up, get them to the birth center, for it to not be a thing.

00:46:49.389 --> 00:47:05.817
And so my midwife this is actually a really cool fact is, my midwife was actually the student midwife of color that was at my son's birth and my son was actually her first catch as a student, so it was super awesome for her to catch my second.

00:47:05.817 --> 00:47:07.655
Her name is Mercedes Snyder.

00:47:07.655 --> 00:47:18.753
She's absolutely amazing and she was in her car outside my house trying to get a little bit of work done as well as take a mini nap, Even though I told her she could sleep on my couch and she's like no, it's OK.

00:47:18.753 --> 00:47:19.871
And I was like OK.

00:47:19.871 --> 00:47:24.518
So she went into her car, I was texting her and I was like I think things are happening, but I'm nervous.

00:47:24.518 --> 00:47:26.335
She was like do you want me to come chat with you?

00:47:26.335 --> 00:47:36.099
I was like yes, so we chatted and just with her in there and her seeing me and she sees me have these contractions and she's like Kiki, I think you're in denial right now.

00:47:36.099 --> 00:47:39.858
Things are happening and I think we might want to think about going.

00:47:39.858 --> 00:47:41.014
How does that sound to you?

00:47:41.014 --> 00:47:43.936
I was like OK, we can do that.

00:47:43.936 --> 00:47:44.838
I'm fine with that.

00:47:44.838 --> 00:47:46.757
So we start moving everything.

00:47:46.757 --> 00:47:49.077
Everybody gets up and awake.

00:47:49.630 --> 00:47:55.295
I had this vision of making sure that my hair was braided because it was long at that time.

00:47:55.295 --> 00:48:12.936
I did not want to be a bald-headed birther like I was last time, and so I intentionally grew my hair out and wanted to feel like a goddess when I was giving birth, and so I braided my hair in French braids and I felt that that was like kind of pulling in my Native American side a little bit.

00:48:12.936 --> 00:48:22.579
And then the bathing suit top that I wore was very colorful and it made me think of my Hispanic side, bringing culture in as much as I possibly could.

00:48:22.579 --> 00:48:25.615
I hired the same doula, so that doula was also present.

00:48:25.615 --> 00:48:28.418
We get to the birth center.

00:48:28.418 --> 00:48:32.818
I am in full blown labor but between contractions I can still talk and stuff, which is great.

00:48:32.969 --> 00:48:47.891
Getting to the space as soon as I got into the space, the first thing we did was put in a hep lock Because, with her being the student of my previous births, me having all of my fainting spells and stuff with my hemorrhage postpartum was actually her first experience with that yeah.

00:48:47.891 --> 00:48:50.998
And so she was like, yeah, we're not doing that again.

00:48:50.998 --> 00:48:52.876
I was like, yeah, let's not do that again.

00:48:52.876 --> 00:48:54.335
So I got a hep lock.

00:48:54.335 --> 00:49:00.177
I got some IV fluid just to start off with being hydrated and knowing that that was something that I wanted to do.

00:49:00.469 --> 00:49:05.259
I was not anemic at this time in my pregnancy, but we didn't want to play any games.

00:49:05.259 --> 00:49:06.976
We didn't want to add any fuel to the fire.

00:49:06.976 --> 00:49:08.094
Things are going great.

00:49:08.094 --> 00:49:15.355
I ended up I wanted a water birth this time, and so, as contractions are happening, and boy did, I have a party birth.

00:49:15.355 --> 00:49:17.275
Everybody was there.

00:49:17.275 --> 00:49:21.115
My dad was there, my stepmom was there, my little sister was there.

00:49:21.115 --> 00:49:22.596
Both of my kids were there.

00:49:22.596 --> 00:49:23.996
One of my best friends was there.

00:49:23.996 --> 00:49:28.485
Both of my sisters, my older sisters were there, my little, brother was there?

00:49:28.505 --> 00:49:29.148
How big was this room?

00:49:30.514 --> 00:49:39.760
It was a decent-sized room, but let's just say they spilled out into the lobby and, thank god, clinic wasn't happening Because my sister's partner was also there.

00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:43.097
So everybody was there and I felt fine.

00:49:43.097 --> 00:49:53.353
I was like, cool, my people are here, it's go time, right and right as things are really picking up, and me and my midwife are like I think it's time for you to get in the birth tub because things might be getting close.

00:49:53.353 --> 00:49:55.179
I'm like I feel that way too, let's do it.

00:49:55.179 --> 00:50:04.554
So I get in the birth tub and things slow down and I was like what the actual fuck, man, why is this happening?

00:50:04.554 --> 00:50:09.074
Because I was literally it was feeling like things were rolling and rolling and I was like, cool, this relief is great.

00:50:09.074 --> 00:50:10.956
And I was like my contractions are gone.

00:50:10.956 --> 00:50:35.014
And so it just happened that my best friend that was there at the time was also 39 weeks pregnant and so she's like let's go walk the halls and so we go waddle our way up and down this hall and she was a birth doula, so she was doing the things and squeezing my hips and everybody else is kind of just letting us have our space and we were chatting and stuff.

00:50:35.409 --> 00:50:36.675
Things were not progressing.

00:50:36.675 --> 00:50:43.418
My contractions were still really far apart and with being a birth worker, I was definitely talking to my midwife being like what are my options here?

00:50:43.418 --> 00:50:44.775
I'm thinking A-ROM.

00:50:44.775 --> 00:50:46.275
That's what I'm thinking right now.

00:50:46.275 --> 00:50:48.155
I'm thinking let's break my bag of water.

00:50:48.155 --> 00:50:50.956
And she's like I'm thinking the same.

00:50:50.956 --> 00:50:52.199
But let's check you.

00:50:52.369 --> 00:50:56.516
I was like sounds perfect, because I was walking for like an hour and things weren't changing.

00:50:56.516 --> 00:51:02.797
So she checked me and I was completely devastated to find out I was only a six after six hours of labor.

00:51:02.797 --> 00:51:06.815
And at this point let's keep in mind, I was five and a half when things started picking up.

00:51:06.815 --> 00:51:22.920
And so I was like you have to be fucking kidding me For me to be in six hours of labor, feeling all the things, and I felt like my bag of water was going to break because I could feel the pressure of it against my cervix.

00:51:23.170 --> 00:51:27.378
I knew that it wasn't a baby's head, because it was giving too much, like giving way too much.

00:51:27.378 --> 00:51:31.514
Sometimes I was giving a little bit of a grunt to help it pop or something, and it didn't.

00:51:31.514 --> 00:51:34.038
So that's why I was like let's see if A-ROM's a thing.

00:51:34.038 --> 00:51:46.643
So at that point we're both like yes, let's do A-ROM, but instead of being on the bed with A-ROM in order to engage my daughter's head further, to go down rather than back and become mal-positioned.

00:51:46.643 --> 00:51:50.697
We did the A-ROM on the birth stool with gentle guidance down.

00:51:50.697 --> 00:52:12.625
My husband was asleep in the other room with my kids at this time because it has been a while and he had worked a full day the day before, and so I was fine with that, and I had my doula behind me and as soon as she broke my water, I went from a six to a nine and a half and my next contraction was treacherous.

00:52:12.625 --> 00:52:23.286
It was completely insane and everything picked up from there, but right after my first contraction I was literally like somebody go get my husband Go get

00:52:23.306 --> 00:52:26.704
my husband Because I knew that things have turned.

00:52:26.704 --> 00:52:29.242
So at that point I do get in the birth tub.

00:52:29.242 --> 00:52:31.501
Things pick up sooner rather than later.

00:52:31.501 --> 00:52:39.289
I'm pushing and it was the most primal and intense pushing I had ever done.

00:52:39.289 --> 00:52:54.385
I was, I felt like I was being so loud, screaming and stuff, but I actually my sisters and everybody else that was in the room was like girl, you weren't screaming, you were growling and it like freaked my sister out because it was all intense.

00:52:54.385 --> 00:53:07.771
And keep in mind, this sister in particular was her first birth, because with the other two births she was out of state so she couldn't make it, and so this was her first birth and I'm literally like you know, like I don't recreate it.

00:53:07.952 --> 00:53:08.855
Yeah, I can't even create it.

00:53:08.974 --> 00:53:15.574
I was just like growling and like, so intense and I wanted her out so bad because I was over being pregnant.

00:53:15.574 --> 00:53:23.259
I wanted her out and my sister almost passed out because of how intense it was for her to watch and I was in the moment.

00:53:23.259 --> 00:53:24.798
I was like, give me a hand.

00:53:24.798 --> 00:53:25.842
I need a hand to grab.

00:53:25.842 --> 00:53:26.764
I was holding the hand.

00:53:26.764 --> 00:53:29.362
I had a birth for a child around the time and I don't know.

00:53:29.362 --> 00:53:34.605
She gave me her hand and I didn't even realize it was hers and I was squeezing the hell out of it and I felt bad for her.

00:53:34.605 --> 00:53:37.362
But she got some good pictures from that angle that she was at, which is great.

00:53:37.362 --> 00:53:40.583
And then I birthed my daughter and it was great.

00:53:40.583 --> 00:53:41.639
I forgot to mention this.

00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:56.166
My oldest, who was eight at the time, wanted to catch my daughter, so she was in the birth tub with me during all of this super primal birthiness and in the pictures you can see she's actually a little freaked out because it's a lot going on.

00:53:56.166 --> 00:54:00.865
I had asked her before things got too intense if she wanted to still catch and she said yes.

00:54:00.865 --> 00:54:04.139
And we had a lot of discussion prior as well, a lot of education.

00:54:04.139 --> 00:54:11.288
That happened, and so my midwife, mercedes, was guiding her through the catching process and it was just beautiful.

00:54:11.288 --> 00:54:19.364
And I birthed her and I remember pushing out her head, thinking that it was her body, and Mercedes was like, oh, head out, her head's out.

00:54:19.364 --> 00:54:21.686
And I was like, oh my God, that's her head.

00:54:21.686 --> 00:54:23.621
I am so over this.

00:54:23.621 --> 00:54:32.244
And so I had to keep pushing and I'm pretty sure that in one point of me pushing my body just gave out and Mercedes had to pull just the tiniest bit probably.

00:54:32.244 --> 00:54:38.284
And then I was like, oh God, I was just so done, because I remember what it feels like.

00:54:38.284 --> 00:54:46.597
That is the only birth that I remember feeling like my baby actually coming out of my body, and I was like, oh God, so it worked, it was beautiful.

00:54:46.597 --> 00:54:56.695
And then we got out of the tub and went to the bed and I birthed my placenta there and everything was fine no hemorrhaging, everything was dandy.

00:54:56.695 --> 00:55:05.164
She for sure had a tongue tie which we ended up getting revised about one week postpartum and everything after that was good.

00:55:05.974 --> 00:55:17.784
About seven months after that birth, that birth center that I was working at actually got bought out by a different birth center, which was the one that I happened to resign from, and they let me go via email.

00:55:17.784 --> 00:55:36.025
While I was in Mexico for my sister's bachelorette party which was really, really painful because I felt that I had such a connection to that birth center and it was such a big part of my birth worker journey and environment that I felt really let down and hurt by the way that they let me go.

00:55:36.025 --> 00:55:39.199
And at that point I was actually office manager, so I had got a promotion.

00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:41.717
When I was on maternity leave, I actually came back.

00:55:41.717 --> 00:55:47.998
Instead of being an admin, I came back as office manager, which was great, it felt great, it was awesome, but the let go process was wack.

00:55:48.855 --> 00:55:54.721
Then I became a stay at home parent and after about a year of being a stay at home parent, I started the Birth as we Know it podcast.

00:55:54.721 --> 00:55:58.844
And so amazing, yeah, that's where I'm at now.

00:55:58.844 --> 00:56:11.864
I'm actually almost at a year of the podcast, and the Birth as we Know it podcast is a podcast that's dedicated to recognizing the many different ways birth unfolds and it's completely just about birth stories and experiences.

00:56:11.864 --> 00:56:20.601
So I talk to birth workers, I talk to birthing people, I talk to partners, I talk to providers and nurses and, yeah, that's where I'm at.

00:56:20.601 --> 00:56:22.965
Yeah, I love that I have some questions.

00:56:23.126 --> 00:56:26.885
Yeah, sorry, I mean you were on such a roll.

00:56:26.885 --> 00:56:28.601
I didn't want to stop you at all.

00:56:28.601 --> 00:56:36.021
So was there anything that you would say was starkly different from your hospital birth, like what you were allowed to do?

00:56:36.021 --> 00:56:41.447
I know a lot of people come into the hospital birth space and different hospitals have different policies.

00:56:41.447 --> 00:56:43.626
Like were you allowed to immediately do skin to skin?

00:56:43.626 --> 00:56:45.097
Were you allowed to?

00:56:45.097 --> 00:56:48.626
I don't know if you wanted to have delayed cord clamping or anything like that.

00:56:48.626 --> 00:56:53.666
Was it similar to your other experiences, just in the hospital, or was there a lot of difference?

00:56:53.954 --> 00:57:03.425
Yeah, I would say that at the time when I had my hospital birth, I wasn't educated enough on the things to look for or ask for in my hospital birth.

00:57:03.425 --> 00:57:06.182
I didn't know what delayed cord clamping was.

00:57:06.182 --> 00:57:07.934
I didn't know what a doula was Like.

00:57:07.934 --> 00:57:15.240
I was 19 and I was looking for midwifery care without actually realizing that my state insurance covered midwifery care.

00:57:15.240 --> 00:57:18.923
I didn't find that out until three days postpartum, which I was pissed about.

00:57:18.923 --> 00:57:31.199
So when it comes to actually preparing for things and getting what I quote unquote wanted at my hospital birth, I felt like the biggest thing I wanted was to go unmedicated, and I accomplished that.

00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:33.181
I got to try the birth tub, like I wanted.

00:57:33.181 --> 00:57:36.961
I just didn't like it and my nurse at the time was bad ass.

00:57:36.961 --> 00:57:38.219
I really wish I knew her name.

00:57:38.219 --> 00:57:43.146
I wish I remembered who she was, because she made a huge difference in my labor process.

00:57:43.146 --> 00:57:49.985
She was super awesome and the laborist was kind of an ass, but I got this minute.

00:57:50.755 --> 00:58:07.117
That's what I would say about that, because my hospital birth, yes, was very different than my birth center and home birth, but the way I prepared for all of those was so different because each of my kids are also four years apart, so I had a lot of time to educate myself between the births to decide what I was going to do by the time I was pregnant.

00:58:07.298 --> 00:58:08.161
Yeah, Okay.

00:58:08.161 --> 00:58:19.545
So I was being in the second birth and telling you that she's going to hang out until you deliver and then she said I'm going to be pissed if you go into labor after I go to work.

00:58:19.545 --> 00:58:23.682
I mean she totally set herself up for that, Right, Absolutely yeah.

00:58:23.682 --> 00:58:32.038
The sitting, I mean no, but like when you're feeling watched, that I mean like hormonally, that doesn't work.

00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:33.822
Yeah, yeah.

00:58:33.822 --> 00:58:43.422
And it was so interesting because, you know, whenever anybody gets to the end of their pregnancies, they're like getting all of these texts or calls, like is the baby here yet?

00:58:43.422 --> 00:58:44.003
Is the baby here yet?

00:58:44.003 --> 00:58:44.625
Is the baby here yet?

00:58:44.625 --> 00:58:45.226
Is the baby here yet.

00:58:45.226 --> 00:58:47.268
And I was already post dates at that time.

00:58:47.268 --> 00:58:49.780
So everybody was like yo, is he here yet?

00:58:49.780 --> 00:58:51.280
Like what's actually happening.

00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:59.224
And so when my mom left, it was a weekend, so my husband was home, my daughter was home, we were just chilling, right.

00:58:59.224 --> 00:59:15.822
I think that it was the fact that I no longer felt like I had to host, that my body like relaxed and was just with my family, feeling relaxed, yeah, and I think that was just the oxytocin that was like it's time.

00:59:16.782 --> 00:59:19.188
Right, right, yeah, now you feel safe.

00:59:19.188 --> 00:59:24.438
You feel, I mean not that your mom didn't make you feel safe, but when you feel like you can just chill.

00:59:24.438 --> 00:59:25.864
That's when you go into labor.

00:59:25.864 --> 00:59:32.768
So parents, people that want to make people go into labor, hovering is not the way to do it.

00:59:33.269 --> 00:59:33.952
Absolutely not.

00:59:33.952 --> 00:59:37.019
So stop that You're going to make it so much worse.

00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:46.364
Yeah, if you want to have that person go into labor, tell them you're leaving and going to work, because that's when they will go into labor.

00:59:46.364 --> 00:59:47.385
Let them go take a nap.

00:59:47.385 --> 00:59:48.036
It will happen.

00:59:48.036 --> 00:59:58.735
I just want to point out that at least for me and it sounds like for you birthing where you work is like so amazing.

00:59:58.735 --> 01:00:00.139
Yeah, it was great.

01:00:00.139 --> 01:00:04.021
Yeah, especially if you're on the unit that you work on.

01:00:05.077 --> 01:00:05.378
So I worked.

01:00:05.378 --> 01:00:07.003
I work both times.

01:00:07.003 --> 01:00:09.903
The first time was I was a postpartum nurse.

01:00:09.903 --> 01:00:12.222
I didn't know anybody really in the labor and delivery unit.

01:00:12.222 --> 01:00:19.483
If you work in the hospital in labor and delivery and postpartum, you know that there's kind of like a turf war between those two units.

01:00:19.483 --> 01:00:21.822
So the vibe wasn't necessarily that great.

01:00:21.822 --> 01:00:22.458
It was fine.

01:00:22.458 --> 01:00:25.804
And then being able to go to my people afterwards was great.

01:00:25.804 --> 01:00:28.724
But birthing on the unit that you work on is just.

01:00:28.724 --> 01:00:33.963
It almost felt like a home birth to me because it was like it's halfway, halfway my home.

01:00:33.963 --> 01:00:35.065
I spent half my life there.

01:00:35.065 --> 01:00:38.043
So having my people, that was my party birth.

01:00:38.043 --> 01:00:43.166
So I really, really think people that are out there thinking oh, I don't want a birth where I work.

01:00:43.976 --> 01:00:45.402
No, think about that really hard.

01:00:45.402 --> 01:00:51.483
See if you want your people there, because those are the people that are going to step up for you if something goes down.

01:00:52.043 --> 01:00:54.500
Right, especially if you like where you work.

01:00:54.500 --> 01:00:56.045
You like the people.

01:00:56.394 --> 01:01:00.186
If you hate where you work, please don't birth there, yeah yeah.

01:01:00.494 --> 01:01:01.900
So that was super awesome.

01:01:01.900 --> 01:01:17.440
And after that birth I had happened to be finishing up my postpartum right as clinic was about to start the next day, and so I got to see the office manager at that time and then I got to see my coworkers and my admin and everything that was there and I was like look at what I made, look at my baby.

01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:22.159
You know, and it was just fun, it was nice, it was like a mini welcome party.

01:01:22.862 --> 01:01:34.329
Yeah, it's so great to have like people stop by when you're in your room and like all of that fun stuff, and then I go through the shifts and get to see everybody and show off yeah, thanks again for every one of them.

01:01:35.371 --> 01:01:43.992
So I try to bring awareness to what happens in this country when people of color go into the birth space.

01:01:43.992 --> 01:02:16.702
I think it's something that we all need to talk about and we all need to really just do better to acknowledge and be very conscientious about, because, even if you think that you don't have bias, I feel like we all do and we need to try extra hard to make sure that people of color are safe for so many different reasons, but essentially the biggest reason being that the mortality and morbidity rate for people of color in the birth space is so much higher in this country.

01:02:16.702 --> 01:02:17.974
It's astounding.

01:02:17.974 --> 01:02:38.036
So, as somebody that has birthed in all the different birth spaces, as a person of color as well, I want to give you the floor, if you are interested in taking it, to speak to all providers out there and let them hear what you have to say about what wisdom you can impart for everybody out there in the birth space.

01:02:40.590 --> 01:02:44.621
That is such a heavy topic and I'm happy to speak on it.

01:02:44.621 --> 01:03:06.501
It's definitely heavy in more than just one way, and so, as a person of color that has birthed in three completely different settings, I will say that I definitely felt more seen in my out of hospital births and this could be because I wasn't like a number of people on the floor.

01:03:06.501 --> 01:03:14.516
You know as a nurse and we had mentioned it earlier that the providers that are supporting you in the hospital you're not their primary focus.

01:03:14.516 --> 01:03:21.521
They have multiple clients or patients that they're seeing at the same time and so I didn't feel like the primary focus in the hospital.

01:03:21.521 --> 01:03:25.257
But I knew that I was there and cared for and they knew that I was there.

01:03:25.257 --> 01:03:34.882
But fortunately my labor in the hospital went pretty quickly, so I wasn't there for like 24 hours in labor to be needing their attention for that spend of time.

01:03:34.882 --> 01:03:40.782
Like I birthed within the shift, so I only had one nurse with me and things like that.

01:03:40.782 --> 01:03:47.141
But in my home birth and my birth center birth I felt like I was birthing with my family.

01:03:47.141 --> 01:03:56.231
One because I could have my family present, my family could physically be present with me, and two because everybody that was in my space.

01:03:56.231 --> 01:04:03.380
I got to choose to be there and so I had the opportunity to look for a provider that looked like me.

01:04:03.380 --> 01:04:07.079
I had the opportunity to hire a doula that looks like me.

01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:15.297
I had the opportunity to even hire and see the birth assistant that supported the midwives that I was with be a person of color.

01:04:15.297 --> 01:04:32.434
So I felt like I had so much more agency in making the decisions and so much more of my voice was heard in my out of hospital births Also, not just during the birth either, but throughout my care, because I got to talk about all of the heavy shit.

01:04:33.010 --> 01:04:56.331
I got to talk about everything that was like really impacting me, like some of my prenatals were more like therapy sessions than they were like a prenatal, like, yes, my providers would touch my belly, do some belly mapping to get hard tones, get my vitals and all that stuff, but then we would talk and we would connect and we would really get to talk about, one, how I was feeling that day.

01:04:56.331 --> 01:05:00.942
Two, what my fears and worries were at that time.

01:05:00.942 --> 01:05:06.541
And three, how we're going to work through those fears and worries before labor happens.

01:05:06.541 --> 01:05:11.632
And if there's this thing that happens during birth, that is really scary, how are we going to communicate?

01:05:11.632 --> 01:05:38.918
And also, I was so happy that when both situations in my out of hospital births like my hemorrhage as well as my labor stall, when I looked up I can see someone one that I knew and that was a familiar face, and two that I could trust because I spent so much time with them that I could literally trust my life in their hands, and that is why I chose to have out of hospital births.

01:05:39.809 --> 01:05:42.739
When I did have a hospital birth, it was still a good experience.

01:05:42.739 --> 01:05:48.221
I didn't have this huge dramatic or traumatic experience because my labor was fortunately quick.

01:05:48.221 --> 01:05:53.780
My labor started on its own, like my situation made it to where it was a smooth sailing birth.

01:05:53.780 --> 01:06:01.442
I didn't have to get induced, I didn't need ptosin, I didn't need interventions that could lead to another intervention and potentially lead to a traumatic birth.

01:06:01.442 --> 01:06:04.909
I'll also say that interventions also lead to non-traumatic births.

01:06:04.909 --> 01:06:06.233
I just want to put that out there.

01:06:06.233 --> 01:06:06.574
Correct.

01:06:06.574 --> 01:06:27.297
Yeah, it made such a difference to me to be surrounded and have that community and also have my support team be supportive of the environment that I wanted to create, the ancestral presence that I wanted to be there, the cultural recognition that I wanted to be present in my space was accomplished in my out of hospital birth experiences.

01:06:27.297 --> 01:06:38.302
I know that if I were to ever have a child again which is not going to happen my husband and I are done, but if I was to ever get pregnant again, I would have an out of hospital birth again.

01:06:38.302 --> 01:06:44.838
I would choose to have another out of hospital birth because of the positive experiences that I've had, even though my home birth didn't end as I wanted it.

01:06:45.369 --> 01:07:10.501
So, yeah, I guess, to actually answer your question, I would say to partners, providers, birth workers that are supporting people of color, to give as much space as you possibly can to hear them and what they're saying, to validate what they're experiencing especially if it's something that you've never experienced before and to provide resources to them.

01:07:11.110 --> 01:07:34.498
And, if you can have those resources, be resources specifically for or ran by people of color, so they can have that connection and then also be open-minded to what they bring into the space that is valuable to them, whether that be someone wanting to bring a native drum and drum to their baby's heart tones when they're in labor, even if they're in the hospital.

01:07:34.498 --> 01:07:44.617
You might be a little loud for some people, so you got to kind of think about other people's spaces and how to ethically make that happen, but just giving your clients the space to have a voice.

01:07:44.617 --> 01:07:52.081
But also, when they do have that voice and express themselves one, don't take it personally, because it's not about you.

01:07:52.081 --> 01:08:02.344
Two, validate it and do something to help or support them in their feelings and listen to them Actually listen.

01:08:02.344 --> 01:08:04.195
Don't just be like, oh, okay, yeah.

01:08:04.829 --> 01:08:15.733
And also one of the biggest things is don't let that one voice that you hear of a person of color be your description or experience or definition of how every other person of color will feel.

01:08:15.733 --> 01:08:17.515
Right now I'm voicing my opinion.

01:08:17.515 --> 01:08:25.118
Another person of color that comes on your podcast may not feel the same, and I am just an individual that happens to be a person of color.

01:08:25.118 --> 01:08:34.154
I am black, native American and Mexican and I wear that proudly, and there's going to be other people that don't feel the same way that I do and don't agree with what I'm saying.

01:08:34.154 --> 01:08:39.662
But I guess the primary takeaway would be make space for them to have a voice and listen when they talk.

01:08:40.411 --> 01:08:41.054
Yeah, I love that.

01:08:41.054 --> 01:09:07.176
I think, like I had spoken about earlier, about the trauma that we as healthcare professionals come in with, I think that leads to some closed-minded energy I don't want to say behavior, it's energy and if you can just open yourself up, I feel like that is so important and I think that helps across the board, but especially if it's me as a very clearly white person walking into someone else's space.

01:09:07.537 --> 01:09:09.481
I have no idea where they're coming from.

01:09:09.481 --> 01:09:30.501
I cannot possibly understand where they're coming from, and so to open myself up without making it about me is probably the only thing that I can do, but I have to put myself aside to be able to do that, so I think that's a really important part of this, and I also want to touch on what you said before about biases.

01:09:31.190 --> 01:09:46.094
I am a 100 million percent believer that every single person that is walking on this planet has bias Every single person and the reason why I'm saying that is because a lot of people try to convince themselves that they're not biased.

01:09:46.094 --> 01:09:57.831
And everybody is, and your job especially, as, like a healthcare provider or a worker or someone that's providing a service or someone that is like customer service-based or whatever someone that works with people.

01:09:57.831 --> 01:10:14.480
You have to find what your biases are, own them when they're pointed out to you by people and just not necessarily change them, but recognize what you have to work on and not get defensive about it, but just know, like everybody has something to work on.

01:10:14.480 --> 01:10:16.774
I have a ton of stuff I got to work on.

01:10:16.774 --> 01:10:21.600
Kids will tell you that, but you know, so I just wanted to put that out there too.

01:10:21.989 --> 01:10:23.511
Yeah, that's important, I think.

01:10:23.511 --> 01:10:38.922
The last question, because you've touched on almost pretty much everything that I usually ask is and I think you've touched on this, but I really like to ask everybody, because sometimes it's different If you could go back and talk to yourself like before you got pregnant that first time what would you want to say?

01:10:39.329 --> 01:10:55.233
I would say trust your guts and your intuition, because even though I was young, I still knew what I wanted and I still knew what I was capable of, regardless of everybody around me telling me otherwise, and do your research.

01:10:55.233 --> 01:10:59.422
And that might be hard, because that's such a blanket statement.

01:10:59.422 --> 01:11:10.832
Do your research, you know, but to if, for example, I really wanted midwifery and I just didn't know what it was called at the time, I didn't know what to look for.

01:11:10.832 --> 01:11:15.342
And by the time I was postpartum, I did know, but I didn't accomplish it.

01:11:15.342 --> 01:11:35.521
And so, even if I did my research back then, I may not have landed in a midwife's care, but going through the experience of not being in midwifery care and then knowing that that's what I wanted, if I were to go back knowing what I knew before I went back if that makes any sense yeah, I would have chosen midwife, but I think that's it.

01:11:35.521 --> 01:11:39.900
And then, if I could do it per pregnancy, can I do it per pregnancy?

01:11:40.792 --> 01:11:41.595
Oh yes, go for it.

01:11:41.850 --> 01:11:45.841
So with my first I would go back and do research and look for midwifery care.

01:11:45.841 --> 01:11:52.903
For my second I would say be proud about who's in your space and get a damn head block.

01:11:55.373 --> 01:11:59.063
I wish I could just tell that to everybody, because that saves so many problems.

01:11:59.130 --> 01:12:07.699
It really does, because you have that access to that intravenous access and emergencies and, like me, being stubborn, even being in birthwork, I just wanted to make that decision.

01:12:07.699 --> 01:12:12.219
But postpartum, like retrospectively, I own that.

01:12:12.219 --> 01:12:13.521
I own that.

01:12:13.521 --> 01:12:16.037
I made that decision and I don't blame anybody else.

01:12:16.037 --> 01:12:20.805
If I had died it would have been because it could have been.

01:12:20.805 --> 01:12:27.154
Most likely would have been because I didn't have a head block and I didn't mention this before.

01:12:27.154 --> 01:12:45.936
But my mother-in-law is from Nepal and she grew up living in the villages in the mountains in Nepal and she said if I was in the village I would have died and that, like even to this day, the access that they have to healthcare in the Nepali villages right now is limited.

01:12:45.936 --> 01:12:50.359
It's better than when she was growing up, but it's limited and I still would have died.

01:12:50.359 --> 01:12:51.481
So that hit me hard.

01:12:51.481 --> 01:13:06.413
But okay, with my third, if I was to change anything about my third, it would be probably to not focus so much on the negative ways that I was feeling in my labor, in pregnancy, because I was very much.

01:13:07.095 --> 01:13:09.162
My headspace when I was trying to get pregnant was hard.

01:13:09.162 --> 01:13:14.960
It took us a long time to conceive her, a lot was going on in the world and everything like that.

01:13:14.960 --> 01:13:19.121
So I felt like all of that came into my pregnancy and my birth.

01:13:19.121 --> 01:13:20.957
So it was a lot more stressed out.

01:13:20.957 --> 01:13:28.533
I carried a lot of negative or uncontrollable energy with me throughout that pregnancy and birth and it felt.

01:13:28.533 --> 01:13:29.756
I felt it in my labor.

01:13:29.756 --> 01:13:33.056
It was the most intense and when I was done I was like I'm never doing this again.

01:13:33.056 --> 01:13:42.716
And then, of course, as my daughter got older, I was like, oh, you're so cute, maybe, but I was like nah, because she's a sour patch and she will like literally kiss you and then slap you across the face and then kiss you again.

01:13:42.716 --> 01:13:44.015
So I totally get that.

01:13:44.015 --> 01:13:44.912
I had the same feelings.

01:13:45.856 --> 01:13:50.475
Yes, the insight that we have with every birth is just so amazing, and I love that.

01:13:50.475 --> 01:13:59.740
Well, first of all, with our podcasts, we can share that insight and hopefully reach more people so that more people are making those decisions, because we don't have that village anymore.

01:13:59.740 --> 01:14:01.435
And so then, what do you have?

01:14:01.435 --> 01:14:13.637
Well, okay, we can try to broadcast it all out there and have as many resources as possible so that people that are going into this don't have to have the same experiences of trial and error that we had going into the space.

01:14:13.770 --> 01:14:19.235
And luckily, I mean, it sounds like you didn't have a whole lot of trauma with your births, that they all went pretty well.

01:14:19.235 --> 01:14:26.978
I did with my first, but I was able to process it because I was a labor and delivery nurse and I was able to talk to people that could help me understand it.

01:14:26.978 --> 01:14:33.173
But it's just, I feel, so much for people that go into the birth space and have this trauma and they don't.

01:14:33.173 --> 01:14:48.300
They feel stuck or they're not able to bond with their baby or they're not able to get past it, and it's something that just stops them from progressing in life, because they've been through this and they don't know how to process it, and so I just think it's so important to share what our takeaways were.

01:14:48.300 --> 01:14:50.865
Was there anything else that you wanted to add that we didn't?

01:14:50.905 --> 01:14:51.328
touch on.

01:14:51.328 --> 01:14:53.117
No, I feel like we covered a lot.

01:14:53.117 --> 01:15:07.301
I would say the main thing that I kind of want to say is to do like a another plug for my podcast by saying if you do want to hear my birth stories in more detail, my first three episodes of my podcast are actually my first three birth stories.

01:15:07.301 --> 01:15:12.311
There's a lot of stuff that I left out because you know this is, you can only say so much in one episode.

01:15:12.311 --> 01:15:14.819
But if you're intrigued, go ahead and give it a listen.

01:15:14.819 --> 01:15:27.338
And I'm primarily want to say I'm super thankful that our energies are matching so well because I feel like we're the same person in different areas of the world and I love that and I appreciate it and I'm glad that we got connected.

01:15:27.640 --> 01:15:28.220
Yeah, me too.

01:15:28.220 --> 01:15:36.494
Thank you so much for reaching out that I mean I've been trying and with my son Howling in the background, I'm just going to go with it.

01:15:38.609 --> 01:15:44.773
I've been trying to really just send out that energy, like the people that I need to come in contact with.

01:15:44.773 --> 01:15:57.353
We will find each other, and I feel like the podcast was like the first step towards that, and so now I'm trying to find that with all of the other things, and I just love that you are one of those people and so I really thank you.

01:15:57.353 --> 01:15:59.038
That, you, that you reached out.

01:15:59.489 --> 01:16:21.944
Well, kiona, as my son is screaming in the background, thank you so much for being a part of this podcast, for reaching out, and I really appreciate the conversations that we had today, being able to be on your podcast and you coming online, and I just encourage everybody to listen to the birth as we know it podcast and all of Kiona's birth stories and, if you, are you still being?

01:16:21.944 --> 01:16:22.631
Are you still?

01:16:22.680 --> 01:16:22.822
doing.

01:16:22.822 --> 01:16:33.038
I am doing doula work very gently right now because I have a young one and my youngest is two and I'm also still a birth assistant, but I haven't been in that realm for a while as well.

01:16:33.038 --> 01:16:34.431
But I'm more of.

01:16:34.431 --> 01:16:37.940
If you need someone to chat about birth, I'm there and I love it.

01:16:37.940 --> 01:16:39.751
You know, if you have questions, I'm there, I'm just.

01:16:39.751 --> 01:16:41.077
I just love being in the birth community.

01:16:41.077 --> 01:16:42.734
I'm just not in the birth space as much.

01:16:43.117 --> 01:16:44.431
Yeah, and how can we?

01:16:44.431 --> 01:16:45.756
How can somebody reach out to?

01:16:45.957 --> 01:16:45.997
me.

01:16:45.997 --> 01:16:50.261
So I actually have my own website and Instagram page.

01:16:50.261 --> 01:17:15.496
So if somebody wants to follow me on Instagram, they can follow me at birth, as we know it podcast, and if somebody wants to potentially share their own birth story on my podcast or connect, you can go to kionnesenbaumcom and so that's K-I-O-N-A-N-E-S-S-E-N-B-A-U-M dot com and then you could just fill out the guest request form.

01:17:15.837 --> 01:17:17.434
Awesome, well, thank you so?

01:17:17.434 --> 01:17:17.854
Much.

01:17:17.854 --> 01:17:19.430
I am really excited for this episode here.

01:17:19.430 --> 01:17:19.931
Yeah, thank you.

01:17:20.032 --> 01:17:23.014
I'm excited too, and I feel like we're going to stay connected after this.

01:17:24.475 --> 01:17:25.456
Yeah, absolutely yeah.