[00:00:00] Pearls. Pearls of wisdom is a series of the birth journeys podcast. where I highlight some of the most profound thoughts that each mother has shared with me. It is so powerful. For birthing people to hear from others Who have been through the Metamorphosis As a motherhood. And it is so important Portant For women to Have a voice in this process In this episode mothers reflect On postpartum support And emotional and physical healing We will hear Here from ellie goldstein ashley web megan mccutcheon Megan jennifer burns emily fennel sasha hon. And charlie marshall Let's start with ellie goldstein

 how to set yourself up for postpartum successEllie

 Ellie. If you could go back. What do you wish you had done to prepare yourself for pregnancy delivery and. And postpartum. 

[00:00:44] Detached audio: Yeah, it really interesting to compare both births, I really think that if I had done anything before, it honestly would've been like mindset work, like meditation breathing, even positive affirmations.

Just things [00:01:00] that you can do to help a positive mindset, you know, because I really. Spend my entire first pregnancy, just so nervous that something would happen that I don't think I really enjoyed it. I wasn't prepared for postpartum anxiety and depression at all. I was super anxious postpartum. And then with the second baby too, it was hard.

It was. So hard. And one thing that I strongly advocate people to do, and I tell moms this is like, as sad as it is, it, while it is sad, the truth is that no one is coming to save you. You have to advocate for yourself. Nobody's gonna say, Hey, I've set up a sitter so that you can go take some time out of the house.

Going shopping alone is not self-care. Taking a shower alone is not self-care like going to. Having a yoga class, seeing a friend, those are things that are self care, but you have to be the one who says, Honey. I [00:02:00] need you to set up a sitter so that I can take time in that house or hey, I'm gonna call around and find somebody to watch my kid.

Right? Like, you just need to advocate for yourself. And I think it's to a level that we don't often do and that I wish if I had gone back just knowing very, very, Early on that like, Hey, I'm gonna have to set up support for myself, and that's okay because we really, really need that. And once I learned that I could set up support for myself, I think motherhood became more enjoyable.

But I do see people struggling where I'm like, Look, let's just make the decision that you can not only ask for help, but basically make it so that you have help. Preach sister. That is 

so.

Jenny. What did you do to prepare yourself for your postpartum experience and what would you do? do? differently next time

[00:02:50] Track 1: while I was pregnant, I felt there's so much planning that you have to do and I felt like so much is out of your control and you just don't know what type of baby you're gonna get. [00:03:00] You don't know what type of recovery you're gonna get. So I sort of, I'm very grateful that I did this.

because of my history of anxiety, I was concerned about having postpartum anxiety being an issue. and I think that during pregnancy I really had the mindset of you don't know what's gonna happen, so might as well just prepare for the things you can control and. , just try and get support for curve balls that come your way.

and thankfully I had a very good support system, so I knew sleep was gonna be , variable, and I knew that recovery would be painful. but in general, I feel after deliveries, providers will say You're gonna be a little bit sore tomorrow. And I don't think that sore quite covers it the same way that cramping doesn't describe contractions. , in my opinion, contractions are crushing and what you feel after delivery is not a little bit of soreness.

But [00:04:00] despite that, as long as I was staying on top of Ibuprofen and Tylenol, I was very pleasantly surprised by what I was able to do and wanted to do. I have a picture of, my son in the bassinet stroller, at a restaurant I think. Within 48 hours from being home from the hospital. And it is three quarters of a mile from where we were living at the time.

And I had walked there because I couldn't believe how good I felt. And I was like, I'm just gonna do it. And then of course, once I got there I was really tired, and wish that I had not done that. But that's just to say that, I felt a lot better than I thought I would, and I probably pushed myself. I think that's like the one thing that I will do differently next time and that I would tell people, other people is, don't push yourself.

Give yourself that time that allotted to actually recover. and it's, great if you're feeling better than you thought you were. , on the inside your body [00:05:00] is still healing and you need to honor that. and feel like I relearned that lesson multiple times. but now looking back on it almost a year ago, I will definitely carry that advice with me next time.

And, you know, when just talking to friends about things that surprise me or that I would recommend, 

[00:05:17] Kelly: It's definitely, it's more important with the second delivery.

[00:05:20] Track 1: Yeah, I believe

[00:05:21] Kelly: You can push your limits with the first, but the second one, I just found like I was okay with just hanging out, holding my like for

eight hours 

[00:05:29] Track 1: Also, cuz you another one who's likely a toddler at that point. , that's a whole different level of exhaustion. . 

[00:05:40] Kelly: baby Yeah 

[00:05:41] Track 1: and I think I also. . I mean, my pregnancy was normal and healthy, like I said, but I felt crappy my entire pregnancy. And so once I delivered and felt good, I just was so excited to be feeling normal again. That wanted to do 

[00:05:58] Kelly: you delivered in

the summer 

[00:05:59] Track 1: [00:06:00] it's

[00:06:00] Kelly: so then like there's that urge to get outside and do all the things and now you feel like you're and if you are living someplace walkable, I mean, I was in New York with my first, and we would, we We , I did the same thing. I went to a restaurant that was at least three quarters of a mile away

[00:06:15] Track 1: Yeah, 

[00:06:17] Kelly: like within, it had to have been 48 hours.

I have

And then, and then I was

[00:06:22] Track 1: Yep, that sounds right.

[00:06:23] Kelly: so it's one those like live and learn things. It's good to tell people, but sometimes it's just like you get that burst of adrenaline and you suddenly feel good and you're like, 

Sacha Han - Postpartum Bianca

[00:06:32] Kelly: oh yeah, do this then you're like, oh, I can't

[00:06:34] Track 1: Yep,

Sasha. What was postpartum like for you? you? with your first baby Maybe. And what did you learn and take with you to your Second postpartum experience 

[00:06:42] Sacha Han: as a new mom in living in an area where you don't have a lot of support, like I was one of the first of my friends living here to have a, my mom had me in the seventies.

It was, you know, you were bottle fed, you weren't breastfed. just the culture of postpartum care was like very American. And, [00:07:00] mom stayed with me for a month after I had her roughly, cuz it was, she was born right between Thanksgiving and Christmas. And my mom lives on the west coast and I was like, why go back and forth?

Like, why don't you just come for Thanksgiving and stay through Christmas? So at first I was like, this would be great, my mom's here. And it was great in the sense that like, she tidied up, she would go walk the dog for me, but. She didn't cook for me. she just doesn't cook. But like I would be in the kitchen, you know, starving like a teenage boy and making myself, you know, a smoothie and other stuff.

And she would be on the couch cuddling with my daughter and, oh, can you get, can you make me some too? And I was kinda like, uh, this be the other way around? Like, shouldn't I be the one laying on the couch with my baby and you're the one preparing the food? But I was like, oh, whatever. And then of course it's Christmas and I wanna be the like, perfect new mom and go to the hospital holiday party and introduce my daughter to everybody and bring something [00:08:00] to the Tammy.

I mean, she's like two and a half weeks old and I'm up in the doctor's lounge here. I made a homemade sherry cake. You know, that's my thing for the holiday party and here's my daughter. and I think I just. I didn't allow myself to rest. I was like, oh, I had my newborn. Now I just, now I go back to resuming my life and I just add, taking her with me everywhere. and then I went home to California for the last six weeks of my maternity leave and stayed with my sister, just so she could spend time with daughter. My daughter is actually the only granddaughter on both sides of the family. And so by staying with my sister, she had enough space for me to kind of be with my daughter my in-laws could come and go and all of that was great cuz they live in the area too. But then like my sister and her twins came down with the flu. So then I was back to like taking care of myself and the newborn again. and it was just less than ideal. It wasn't what I thought. And so I'm pretty sure I had postpartum depression. I mean, I never thought of [00:09:00] harming myself or anything, but I just felt like. Always bummed out and it was a little more than let's say, the baby blues. and it really affected me and I don't know if it's also the challenges I had breastfeeding since I had breast surgery. and not being able to give a full supply. And then I didn't find out until she was six months old that she had a tongue and lip tie. So that added to it and I just was a really overwhelming experience

Sacha Han - Postpartum Liam

[00:09:24] Sacha Han: and with him, prepping for like I knew the whole postpartum depression thing. I set my expectations a lot lower, so I actually set up my own meal train and sent it to people. When people are like, how can I help? I go sign up for the military. like, bring food to my family. I dove a lot deeper into and a lot of the eastern medicine postpartum care because my husband's Korean. So the Korean tradition nothing cold. So like your body has to maintain a certain temperature, like no ice water, it's only lukewarm water, or hot tea or hot beverages, soups or hot meals, no ice cream. keeping the house at a [00:10:00] certain temperature, all of that. And it was a perfect time of year. Like it was very easy to stay consistently, 74. and I lamented that before I had him, but afterwards it was completely comfortable.

I got used to it actually. It was pretty interesting. but also just setting the bar a lot lower. Like, I'm not gonna be doing laundry, I'm not gonna be doing chores. My job is to shower every day and eat good food for myself and my baby, and, breastfeed my baby. So anything else that happens, other people need to figure out how to do that. And it's like my girlfriend came and took Bianca for the day and brought a bag of groceries for us and like a lot of snack type stuff for me. I had my team in place, like my husband, my doula friend. my midwife friend had moved out of the area at that time, but maybe like two other people that I naturally talk to on a regular basis.

We an action team set up that if Sasha starts saying these different words then, about her feelings in this way, then we need to remind her she needs to go see her therapist. and I had printed out sheets of like warning signs of postpartum depression and and put on the wall in front [00:11:00] of changing table. So every time I changed him, I would see that. And it was my own mental checklist, like, am I feeling this? Am I not feeling this? know I knew if I'm feeling this, I need to speak up and say I need help. And everybody knew they would have to just drop everything and help so I think that actually, I don't think I experienced postpartum depression with him.

It was actually best postpartum experience ever. had a really good time and I literally just breastfed him all day again because of the, surgery. I can't just like feed a kid in 15 minutes. It's a hour long process. that took up most of my time, but I just focused on him and feeding him and. as far as I know for now, that was my last breastfeeding journey and I'm it went the way it did. And it ended with him deciding he's done and it was like for 15 months, whereas my daughter, I to like struggle to get to nine months. and then I pumped for like four more months after that.

Sacha Han - Postpartum wisdom

[00:11:49] Track 1: another thing I wanted to touch on that I really love that you did for your second pregnancy I think a lot of people, so we have gone away from the village, like this is not how we raise children anymore. we have it [00:12:00] in our heads that we're supposed to be independent, but natural way to commune is to not be independent.

Right? So how does that balance work? We don't want to jump in and force ourselves on anybody. and so we also don't wanna ask for help. there has to be, there has to be a way, you know, and I think that, , the fact that you were able to share with your community what you needed was probably helpful for them and for you.

would love to encourage more moms to do that. And so if we could bridge that help women, cuz that's one of the biggest challenges that I had. I did have, when I had my daughter, I had friends that had just had babies and they insisted on coming over and they insisted on talking me through some things that I didn't even know were a problem.

I just kind of felt overwhelmed. And so I, I loved that and they brought me food. but I didn't know what to ask for with the first and with the second. I felt like I had to know it all. You know, , I did lean on my friends that were lactation consultants, but, it's hard to ask for what you and I think if you had 

[00:12:54] Sacha Han: yeah 

[00:12:54] Track 1: it'd be helpful.

[00:12:55] Sacha Han: Well, in a first time, mom isn't gonna know what she needs, right?

and [00:13:00] the other thing is like, please stop with the 5 million lasagnas. Like,

[00:13:04] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:13:04] Sacha Han: So omg, and I've made it my own personal mission. Anybody I know, like when they have a baby, I'll make like beef soup,

[00:13:12] Track 1: Mm-hmm. .

[00:13:13] Sacha Han: Korean beef soup.

And

I deliver the meal, it always comes with like grab and go snacks that are.

[00:13:19] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:20] Sacha Han: the mom's breastfeeding grab and go snacks that various people told me they've enjoyed. Like my one friend had a jar of nuts always next to her chair and she would snack on nuts. Another person was like, I loved those like snack cheese cracker things.

So

deliver like nibbly, middle of the night type things for the

help her through. And sometimes I think the onus is on us experienced moms to go into the first time mom and to offer

[00:13:47] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:48] Sacha Han: we are comfortable doing for them.

[00:13:50] Track 1: right?

[00:13:51] Sacha Han: would come and say, I'm going to the grocery store, what do you need?

[00:13:55] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:55] Sacha Han: get it for you? No. What you need? I will get it for you.

be a little bit [00:14:00] pushy,

in a good way. And our job as the support community is to not go snuggle the baby is not to go. do the things a new mom should be doing. Other than I remember one of our colleagues, her husband was deployed, so she was by her, by herself and her baby had horrible acid reflex and had to be held all the time.

we would go, we all took shifts to go to her house. you know, the night shift girls took the night shift,

be an up all night

[00:14:25] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:26] Sacha Han: would all go take shifts so that she could sleep for a couple hours. So, like in that instance, yes, it's okay. Your job is to come hold the baby, but if not, that baby belongs next to that mom.

It's

[00:14:36] Track 1: right? Mm-hmm.

[00:14:38] Sacha Han: job is to come take care of the other kids,

[00:14:41] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:42] Sacha Han: for her 

[00:14:43] Track 1: Door Laundry,

[00:14:43] Sacha Han: for her, know, or if she wants to wash it, you fold it or take it to a fold and go and pay for it for

[00:14:51] Track 1: Yes.

[00:14:51] Sacha Han: we've gotta think outside the box.

I know our church actually just started a new 40 days for new moms.

[00:14:58] Track 1: Oh, that's 

[00:14:59] Sacha Han: new volunteer [00:15:00] group. Anybody can participate where any new mom at the church just lets us know when she's had the baby. And then people will just come check in on her for the first 40 days.

[00:15:10] Track 1: That's amazing.

[00:15:11] Sacha Han: we need to get back to this. Like

[00:15:13] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:15:14] Sacha Han: all of the other cultures and communities of the

[00:15:16] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:17] Sacha Han: American mothers are just basically abandoned.

[00:15:20] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:15:21] Sacha Han: like our job. We're the vessel to provide the child and no one cares about us.

[00:15:26] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:15:27] Sacha Han: think when we talk about our challenges and experiences with each other, those of us that have had challenges, I think we are more inclined that are open with it, are more inclined to help other new moms

go like, it looks like you're having a rough time.

Do you

cry?

[00:15:42] Track 1: yeah,

[00:15:43] Sacha Han: you. I will do that for you.

[00:15:45] Track 1: yeah,

[00:15:45] Sacha Han: cry, it's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's okay to not know what you're doing and that's why we're here for you.

[00:15:51] Track 1: yeah,

[00:15:52] Sacha Han: away from that. And I think as you said, like we really need to get people in on 

[00:15:56] Track 1: yeah. Recreate the village

step by step and[00:16:00] guide on how to do it.

[00:16:01] Sacha Han: Right. Well, and share those stories. Right.

not all of us are ga bazillionaires, like

[00:16:08] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:16:09] Sacha Han: that can have a staff to do everything for us and have our perfect postpartum body

[00:16:13] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:14] Sacha Han: and all that stupidity. real women challenges. Yeah. Well, and I think about our healthcare.

Like I had patients who like, wait, I can't go back to work for four weeks. I go, no, you just had this major abdominal surgery. But, I only get two weeks off.

[00:16:29] Track 1: Oh my 

[00:16:29] Sacha Han: You know? And I mean,

can't afford any help, you know? And they're going through all of this. So there's a lot that needs to change, but I could just start with me, right?

[00:16:38] Track 1: right. Yeah,

pmads

[00:16:40] Track 1: exactly. Yeah. 

Ashley. Ashley you attempted a home birth. And after laboring for days, it was determined that your. Baby was malpositioned at that point, you chose to go to the hospital. As your labor progressed at the hospital It was recommended that you proceed. proceed. with an urgency section due to fetal intolerance of labor that must have been difficult and traumatic what Helped you process [00:17:00] all of that Oh my gosh. So I had a friend who was pregnant at the same time as me, and she had her baby about a month and a half before, and it was her second. And her and I were constantly texting and talking, you know, And I remember her telling me, after the baby's born, you're gonna get what's called the .

Do not let yourself spiral with it. She was like, You're gonna be emotional. You're gonna feel sad, you're gonna be exhausted. You can fill all the feelings, just try to keep in your mind. It's just the baby blues and your body's hormones evening out. And I never really fully took maternity leave because what I do here at my firm, a lot of stuff I do no one else knows how to do.

So I had kind of negotiated with my boss that I could take as long as I wanted, but I would still be online a few times throughout the week and stuff. And looking back, those two things I think were the huge factors in. Spiraling into postpartum because I think I had a lot of other things that were contributors that could have [00:18:00] pushed me into that, you know, feeling like a failure.

The recovery from the C-section, which is really, really hard. Not being great at breastfeeding and struggling with that at first. But I remember one day getting in the shower and just crying. and I started to get vertigo cause I have issues with my inner ear. And the lack of sleep was agitating my vertigo.

So I'm like, how am I gonna care for my baby when I'm so dizzy? Just in the shower, just bawling. And I just heard my friend's voice, just the baby blues, You're okay. And I remember laughing with eyes of the shower and being like, It's just the baby blues. It's okay. Just let it out. It's just the baby. And then working a little bit still.

I think it helped give my mind something to focus on other than how tired I was and how sad and depressed I was about my birth outcome. I think those things really helped me,

Yeah, Ashley, I love that you shared that because your coping skills are so in line with your personality. I know you're the type of person that is [00:19:00] always. doing. Things to help others. And I love how you incorporated that. Into your For postpartum coping to keep your Mind off of. Some of the things that might be weighing down on you but also give you a purpose outside Of being a mom Mom and to stay in touch with the outside world and i think that it's Great that you're sharing that because it gives other Moms Kind of the permission to Find their own personal coping skills that work The Best for them Ellie did you experience any postpartum depression Freshen or anxiety 

[00:19:33] Detached audio: That's a really good question cuz I don't think I really put it together until afterwards, which was funny because they warned me and they warned my husband, Hey, you know, postpartum anxiety and depression is real, et cetera. But I just didn't. Really know until retrospect, looking back with my second one, I did kind of get it a little bit more but it's, [00:20:00] it's not like the anxiety I had experienced before. It's different. And so I think that's what kind of tricked me is that I was feeling off, I was not feeling good, but I wouldn't have labeled it as anxiety because the postpartum anxiety is different than typical anxiety.

Yeah it's one of those things where it's like you have to kind of ask yourself the key questions I was tricked by it because I was expecting to have the desire to get up in the morning, not have the desire to take care of my baby, not have the desire to take care of myself. , I didn't experience any of that, but I definitely had postpartum anxiety with both. The first time I didn't get medicated or do anything about it cuz I didn't know what it was because I was doing all the things and I was enjoying the things. I just had kind of intrusive thoughts and I thought they were normal. 

But then after, after my pregnancy, , I noticed like things were getting difficult. There were some traumatic events that were occurring. And I noticed myself getting kind of more irritable and just generally [00:21:00] annoyed, it finally took talking to another friend to be like, Oh yeah, this is a sign of depression.

Doesn't matter that I'm motivated to do all the things, that I'm not sleeping all the time I'm irritable and that's making my life difficult. And on top of that, I'm also having some intrusive thoughts. It can manifest so differently and I just think it's important for women to be aware that if it's not your baseline, if there's something that's happening that isn't normal for you, and it's, a mental health or an emotional issue that Is it your baseline?

It's important to talk about it you can get and it doesn't have to like completely disrupt your life,

Charlie

Charlie. How was your postpartum experience? 

[00:21:35] Track 1: Physically postpartum was for the most part, other than the retained weight . It was pretty good. I had some pelvic floor issues with, with my second baby, but, listen, ladies, take care of your pelvic floor.

 Physically postpartum It was pretty good it was mentally that took me a little over a year after both babies to bounce back from postpartum. attacked [00:22:00] me hard and I thought that I was gonna be more prepared the second time because it's like, yeah, but It was, it was awful. . But the one thing that really got me through in both pregnancies that I noticed was the sun. Every day I got up and it was an opportunity to take a walk just to, as long as the sun was out, my front door was open, my blinds were open, and I was happy.

the most part, you know, the random outburst of crying and checking and anxiety and all that good stuff was, it could have gone away. But then at. , all the intrusive thoughts and resentment and everything just like, just piled up at the bottom of my bed and stared at me throughout the night. I just could not wait for the sun to come back up.

[00:22:47] Kelly: end up having any treatment for postpartum symptoms?

[00:22:51] Track 1: the second time I did. Talk with my provider and she prescribed me nice things. My [00:23:00] postpartum anxiety and my intrusive thoughts told me that that was gonna harm my baby , my thoughts just wouldn't allow me to do it. And when she gave it to me, I was all in. I'm like, good. I wanna feel normal. I wanna feel better. And. . I started taking them she was like, it's just gonna take a little while to kick in.

And so I'm like, oh God, I'm gonna take them and then I'm gonna have to keep taking them and I have to keep taking them. And the thoughts just wouldn't let me refill my prescription , prescription . So, so yeah, I just, I, again, I bugged it out and I don't, I don't know if, if that was for the better or the worse.

I haven't figured that part out yet. I mean, he's three now, so we'll see.

[00:23:38] Kelly: it go away at a year for both of them?

[00:23:40] Track 1: for Julian, it was like right at a year, before fall, like I just, I remember feeling like myself again by September. with Cion, it was a little, a year and a half actually, because my cycle had came back, so my milk supply at that moment, taken a plunge.

I mean, all the things were hitting me, [00:24:00] so it just kind of didn't go away. And I think once we made the decision to continue to nurse, I felt better. half.

[00:24:08] Kelly: are all things that you have

[00:24:09] Track 1: Oh 

[00:24:10] Kelly: when have anxiety and have to go back and forth and try to figure out how to handle that, that's so hard.

[00:24:16] Track 1: and at that point it was Covid. So they're talking about vaccines and I'm like, oh my gosh, am I gonna breastfeed him? I'm not. At this point he had broken out from like so many things just randomly and we couldn't figure out what it was. So postpartum was like, yeah, you got a lot going on. I'm just gonna stay here with you for a little bit longer.

So , so you're not alone. . Which which was great.

[00:24:37] Kelly: also the hormones when you're breastfeeding and then when you stop breastfeeding, there's a whole shift that has to happen. And so then you have other rollercoaster that you're gonna deal with. And

[00:24:50] Track 1: Yeah 

[00:24:50] Kelly: So then did you do any therapy or any other 

[00:24:53] Track 1: Oh, yes. Therapy. oh. oh Is that treatment or is that like happy hour

[00:25:00] sorry, me, , I love my therapy hour. It's like, Kids, I'm. Don't bother me. I get to be alone. I to vent, I get to cry. I have to, this is not, if I have never been so consistent in any type of self-care in my life, I will go to That's what I will I encourage it It's like my insurance will pay you You'll listen to me cry and you'll offer suggestions on how I could

better myself 

[00:25:28] Kelly: magic

[00:25:29] Track 1: Wow

Jenny, you have experienced anxiety, as you said for most of your. Your adult life. Did you notice any differences in the manifestation of your anxiety during. 

Pregnancy or postpartum 

[00:25:42] Track 1: hJennie Weill

when I did have anxiety postpartum, it was definitely sort of classic examples of, if I do this, will this terrible thing happen? Or like, every time I go down the stairs, am I gonna drop the baby? you know, whenever something new comes up, if it's even mildly [00:26:00] concerning. it was a lot easier for me to sort go down a rabbit hole of what ifs.

and I would really have to consciously stop myself, in a way that did not have to. since it had been under control. and I had a very helpful session with my therapist, cuz I had before, I think when I was like 37 weeks. at that point I was seeing her other month I think. And I said, I would like to have a session scheduled for three weeks postpartum, just to be sure.

and I'm really glad that I did, because I remember telling her about this and she said, you know, you're responsible for a human now and you love this human more than anything. So of course you're gonna worry about whether you're taking good care him thinking about things that you have to worry about that you didn't have to worry about before is normal as long as you're not acting on them or changing what you do. So if you told me that now you don't go up and down the stairs carrying your child and you [00:27:00] make somebody else, then I would be concerned.

But just those fears is normal and they will most likely get better. And thankfully they did.

J ennifer bByrnes

Yes. It is such a relief to realize that that. It is normal. And it can get better. Jennifer burns You experienced a shoulder dystocia with your first delivery? Which was very painful and traumatic for you. You also experienced. Physical complications afterwards. At some point you recognized that you had not only postpartum depression And anxiety. But also PTSD. What were the steps? 

That you took to improve your situation.  

[00:27:36] Track 1: Well, I guess a couple of things. I will say that really the turning point for me, and I can't remember if this was before or after I did do some, perinatal therapy. Postpartum therapy, was really talking with you because you were the first person to ever say that was an emergency, because up until [00:28:00] that time I thought I was crazy.

I was like, Nobody's making a big deal about this. Everybody's just like, Oh, you had a difficult delivery. So I was left very much feeling like, Oh gosh, know, I'm weak. there's something wrong with me that I couldn't handle this situation. Right. and I knew something was terribly wrong, it wasn't until I talked to you and you were like, No, that actually was an emergency.

And actually, know, what you went through was a trauma that I think I was able to kind of zoom out of my experience a little bit and go, Okay, I'm not crazy. This is something that I can get help with. it's not that I failed in any way, Really what was missing was some information. And so with that information I went to therapy for a while.

I went on medication. kind of knew ahead of time that I was a risk for postpartum depression, but PTSD is gonna certainly skyrocket up those odds. I will say [00:29:00] that, Because I was vocal about this in the beginning, my providers knew and we were able to plan first. So pretty much once my son came out, meds went in, I had to take a couple of different medications because there were times where my postpartum depression got so much worse.

And I, again, I feel fortunate because, being in the mental health field, even though at that time I was not a perinatal practitioner, um, I knew that I needed to advocate. I knew what I needed to say to get into providers sooner, and to ask for specific things. and so again, in that way I think I was able to kind of move through, some of the postpartum depression anxiety.

it wasn't until much, much later, like several years later that I actually did the very specific targeted trauma work on my delivery. and [00:30:00] that has made all the difference. To some extent, time provides some distance and sometimes time heals some wounds. But it is such a physical, visceral experience that sometimes, that time and distance and talk therapy just isn't enough.

and you have to do some more targeted work. So, um, I was in a much, much, much better place moving into my, my second. Pregnancy

Jennifery Byrnes EMDR

[00:30:31] Kelly: And specifically, what was the trauma therapy that you did to help you with that situation? it? Can you explain what that, method.

[00:30:40] Track 1: Sure. I decided that I wanted to do some, mdr. Which it stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And it is a specific type of trauma therapy and we can use it for things, besides [00:31:00] acute traumatic events. but initially it was developed to deal with, very traumatic specific events that people experience.

And so the idea is that we want to. Turn down the intensity of a memory. That's the desensitization part. We want to help process the trauma that's held in our body, because, our mind does all kinds of wonderful things in order to protect us the best way that it can. Sometimes it's less helpful because our brain can do too good of a job.

But regardless, our body is gonna retain whatever that trauma is. and so EMDR aims to help us desensitize the memory, change the way that we interact with the memory, allow us to do the physical somatic processing of a trauma so that we are less reactive to it whenever we [00:32:00] experience something that could be potentially triggering.

and it is becoming more and more known even though it's been around for a long time. and it, it is shown to be an effective trauma intervention. It is not the only trauma intervention. there are lots of other very good interventions out there that are very efficacious as well. But EMDR is the way chose to go.

And I had a very, very good experience, um, reprocessing my trauma. And when I went into my second delivery, I did have a moment of panic, and actually was interrupted by a nurse, which is great . but it was a moment as opposed to an overwhelming feeling, I couldn't move through. And so I feel like had I not done that work prior to my second pregnancy, I would've had a very different experience.

I would've been much more stressed. I probably [00:33:00] would've disassociated a lot of that experience, because it is such a physical, experience to deliver, right? I can't, I struggle to think of something that might be more physical that you might do in your life. and with there being a lot of trauma in the body prior to doing that again, I'm just so glad I didn't have to do go through that again.

[00:33:23] Kelly: So one of the things about EMDR that I really love is that if there is someone who not comfortable with talk therapy, that doesn't to, necessarily verbalize the experience or can't find a way describe the feelings. it's not necessary. Can you talk a little bit more about, that aspect of.

[00:33:46] Track 1: Absolutely. It is one of the things that I. Makes EMDR such, a helpful tool for people because a lot of times we don't wanna talk about the trauma. It's too intense to go into the [00:34:00] details. So what's really lovely about emdr, and again, there are other interventions too that are less talk based. but you are not required to go into the details.

you are not required to tell me really anything. sometimes when I'm reprocessing with clients, the only thing that they share with me, other than I have some idea of their target. but when they're actually reprocessing, they just talk about what's happening in their body, and it's fascinating that somebody is able to work through the trauma.

Without having to say anything about it and only focus on what that feels like for them internally. It's really cool 

[00:34:41] Kelly: I feel like it's also very important too, because I don't think we really focus a whole what is happening in our bodies when we're experiencing trauma and stress. and so I love that it's turning things of on their head and giving us the chance to look at the way that stress affects the [00:35:00] body.

. So, um, prior this experience, you were a therapist and you weren't specialized in perinatal, mental health, and you also were not, certified in emdr. so can you talk about. What made you decide to, transition?

[00:35:18] Track 1: So, Once I finally came out of that black hole of postpartum depression, I looked around and I realized, gosh, there are a lot of other women who are struggling in this way. and I, did postpartum support groups and things like that. So I'm hearing a lot of other stories from women and I just, Really motivated. I've always loved working with moms. I, I just think moms are a lot of fun to work with. And then when I became one, I gained this whole new perspective. and so even more empathy for how challenging it is to be a parent. and then having been through my own experience, [00:36:00] I wanted to do anything I could to prevent other women from having to suffer the way that I was suffering.

I wanted. To be one of those therapists who could validate people's experiences, who could allow them to have a voice. because that's one of the things that tends to lead to really high rates of trauma in a delivery experience is a lot of people feel like they do not have a voice. and so it's really important to allow.

know, whatever they need in order to be able to tell their story if they want to or to not. Right? But to still have somebody sit with them and hold, their grief about not having the labor and delivery experience they wanted, or their grief about not having the postpartum experience that they wanted.

just, that became so important to me. And then the more I started to do in pert. Mental health, the more I realized how much trauma [00:37:00] is just present, sort of start to finish, right? We've got trauma of people struggling with fertility. We have, invasive procedures in order to get pregnant in, in some cases, right?

And then if there's potential trauma during pregnancy, and then of course you've got the labor and delivery experience and then, there's plenty of trauma that happens postpartum. And so I just said to myself, There's a very real need for more practitioners who really specialize in this trauma part of perinatal mental health, because perinatal mental health is something We always need more and more practitioners in, but we also really need those trauma specific perinatal health practitioners. and so I did choose EMDR as my modality of choice, and decided to go all the way through to certification because I can't undo a really traumatic labor and delivery experience, but [00:38:00] I can help women.

Interact with those memories differently, Feel less intensely, in their body when triggered by something, and potentially have a better postpartum experience. To reduce rates of postpartum depression where we can, and certainly reduced rates of ptsd.

We all deserve a good labor delivery and postpartum experience. We don't always. But we can work to make it more manageable, and not have to suffer with that trauma day in and day out when we're trying to take care of a little person. 

I love that. That is so important. Megan McCutcheon. How did you realize you were experiencing. Some of the symptoms of perinatal mood And anxiety disorders

[00:38:45] megan: So after the birth of my second baby, things were great until about week seven. So around week seven, it was after my six week postpartum. where I had been kind of, you know, I checked all the boxes on the, [00:39:00] the postpartum depression scale that, everything was good. Cleared. That was good to go.

Around week seven, I started really struggling and, I was a mental health therapist and I was like, I'm not depressed. I'm not tearful. I have, I'm not having any struggles bonding with my baby, but I just feel off, I feel really confused. felt really brain fogy. was mixing things up. Like the example that I remember so vividly was my daughter had a.

Preschool teacher conference appointment and it was gonna be at nine o'clock and it was gonna be for 20 minutes. And in my brain I mixed that up and I showed up at nine 20. and, know, showed up to like a closed door teacher, wasn't there, checked my emails and she's like, I'm so sorry you missed the appointment.

everything's okay. If you're running late, I can see you at 10. And so I remember just standing in the parking lot so confused about how, cuz I'm normally a pretty, On the ball person, manage my schedule. And so it's just like, how did that happen? That I mixed that up and I was so confused [00:40:00] about what to do next.

We were gonna be there for 40 minutes and my husband and I both had our own cars because we were gonna go to work after. And I thought, should we just sit here in the parking lot for 40 minutes? Should we go get coffee? Should we drive together somewhere? Should we drive separate? It just all felt like this huge, overwhelming, confusing decision.

and in that moment my husband's like, what like going on with you? What's wrong? I knew it wasn't postpartum depression or it didn't seem like postpartum depression. So I just really chalked those symptoms up to I am just, know, a mom that's adjusting to life with two babies versus.

So I really kind of dismissed those symptoms and then fast forward a couple weeks and I had this experience where I felt so overwhelmed. I felt like I constantly needed to be busy, so I was always like busy doing stuff, I wasn't doing the like rest when the baby rests, take some downtime to cuddle with your newborn.

I was like, put him in the little rocker. Okay, he's quiet. I have to like, organize everything in the kitchen. so I was just constantly going. And then I had this [00:41:00] moment of frustration where both of my kids were crying. I felt like I had to finish this organizational project I was working on, and I remember having this thought of, I, I went into, I had this thought of would it feel good to throw my baby down the stairs?

that was like this red flag for me of this isn't normal thinking like that is what I know to be postpartum depression. When you start having. Sort of thoughts that you wouldn't normally think. and so I went down into the basement and I just bawled my eyes out and cried and I was like, something is wrong with me.

So I ended up at that point calling my OBGYN and going in and she was so validating. And I remember the thing she said to me when I told her I had this scary thought. She was like, My thought was, would it feel good to throw my baby in a pot of chili?

I was cooking on the stove. And so just that was just so helpful for her to normalize like, you're not crazy, you're not a bad mom. And I love to tell this story because I, I didn't know. So what I was going through was postpartum anxiety. And at the [00:42:00] time, even as a mental health therapist, I had never heard of postpartum anxiety.

I'd only heard of postpartum depression. Or postpartum psychosis. So I, for a while dismissed what I was going through. And after that I just became so passionate about learning more. and that's when I really got into doing some training and learning more about just the range of perinatal mood and anxiety disorders.

Things that can happen during pregnancy or postpartum. and there's so many more things than were ever on my radar, which is so, disappointing to me as a therapist. It's like I was a therapist and I didn't know this stuff, so I'm so passionate about telling people about these different things and letting moms know that if you have those scary thoughts, It doesn't make you a bad mom.

You may just be dealing with some postpartum anxiety and it's super treatable.

megan MacCutcheon - medication

[00:42:44] Track 1: if those things don't work 

[00:42:46] megan: Mm-hmm 

[00:42:47] Track 1: or if they, they work, but they're not enough and the thoughts are just debilitating, what are some other options?

[00:42:53] megan: Yeah, so for some people that's really enough just to to have awareness I have a lot of moms that come into [00:43:00] my therapy practice and we really only meet once or a couple of times because what they really need is just this reassurance that Hey I know what you're dealing with It's not the end of the world You're going to be okay You're not crazy and here's know how to cope with it And so for some of them just managing it mentally is enough And then for others if it doesn't seem to get better or if those thoughts have already become so and distressing that they really like feel like they can't of control it just through their own thinking then medication is often something that I refer To look into medication can really really help in these situations And something that's really important for moms to know is that often in the perinatal period especially when intrusive thoughts are present you often need a higher dose than you normally would need So I have so many moms coming in who are already on Zoloft or one of the other medications for their anxiety Maybe they've been on All along throughout their pregnancy or maybe they got on it after because [00:44:00] of anxiety but if the dose know high enough for them then it's not treating these thoughts So so many people kind of panic about but I'm already on medication and so we'll always look at the dosage and often I'm referring them back to their prescribing doctor to just you know I have like a little cheat sheet in my office what the right dosings are and they tend to be a little higher So I'm often referring them back to just say See you can go up a little bit And for a lot of moms that ends up really helping Sometimes it doesn't completely take away the intrusive thoughts but often you'll start to see a decrease in them and a decrease in their frequency so I really recommend I'm not a big medication pusher generally but I really do think it can be helpful during this period In in particular With this format of postpartum anxiety So it's something consider It's not harmful to the baby even if you're breastfeeding And then the other thing too is really just managing your anxiety of on the whole so the way that I like to describe it like imagine you're holding this like [00:45:00] platter and on top of it are all these bricks Each stressor is another brick And if you're just holding a couple stressors a couple bricks it's it's okay to balance You can manage it but the more you start piling that weight up The the harder it becomes to really manage and that's when we see anxiety really peaking So a lot of times people will start to track the pattern that the more stressed they are the more anxious they are around just the circumstances in their life the worse their intrusive thoughts get I really like to work with moms to teach them anxiety managing tools I have a course called Empowered Motherhood where I teach a lot of this stuff around managing your thinking And I have lots and lots of mindfulness tools and techniques that you can use to Maintain manage your anxiety And what's so important is that people start learning these tools and start practicing them regularly during moments when they're not already panicked when they're not already feeling anxious a lot of times people kind of push it to the back burner and they're like okay well maybe I'll try this like deep breathing or this [00:46:00] mindfulness tool or whatever when I'm really anxious if you're already to the point of anxiety it's going to be harder So I really like to teach To start implementing these things just kind

of like as part of their routine into their everyday life. And that helps to keep the anxiety from escalating and the less the anxiety, escalates, the fewer and farther between these intrusive thoughts will start to become.

More medicaiton

[00:46:22] megan: And one of the analogies I like for medication and and sort of what you were describing is that sometimes it's like we're kind of in this hole with depression or with can sometimes be like that ladder that gives 

[00:46:39] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:46:39] megan: boost you need And often we need it 

[00:46:43] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:44] megan: yes there's a But sometimes we need that extra boost and that extra boost is gonna be what we need in order to be able to start implementing [00:47:00] some of those other things And so you know 

[00:47:02] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:47:03] megan: have to be a forever Thing That's one of the questions that I get asked a lot too is know how long am I gonna have to be on this medication And one of the mistakes people make is they they do get on the medication and then they feel better and so then they go off of it But that's a really important thing too when we are considering medication is to stay on it long enough that you you let it do its job Otherwise you risk rela 

[00:47:57] Track 1: Right. And also [00:48:00] not have the expectation that you have to go off of it, that you will automatically be fine in a year because you. Just had a baby and you have this tiny little person that you have to take care of and that is hard. And sometimes you just need a little help to balance those emotions 

[00:48:25] megan: and you're you're putting all these different bricks on it like you've permanently put this giant brick on top of your your load that you're 

[00:48:32] Track 1: right.

[00:48:33] megan: this human to take care of And so a lot of people think you know like oh I should be able to do this without medication I should you know I shouldn't be feeling this way Those thoughts just really increase the anxiety So 

[00:48:45] Track 1: Yeah,

[00:48:45] megan: some grace and just be able to recognize this is a huge transit And it's okay that I am not you know just flying through this easily Like it's okay that I need a little bit of support and a little 

[00:48:57] Track 1: right,[00:49:00] so it's not just that you have this one huge brick, because that one huge brick comes with so many other little tiny bricks that get tight . You know, there's just so much, and it just, it doesn't go away. It's a every problem that you ever had as a, as your own human being.

you got to a point as, as your own person, as a, an adult that decided to have a baby. Maybe you got to the point where you could manage all of your. load, right? But then every child you have, you're taking on the load of a whole other human and all of the things that go with that, and all of their anxieties and feelings and emotions and just everything that goes with that.

And so you have to do the work to learn how to manage that. And additionally, when someone has the thought, which I think we all do, I should be able to do this. First of all, let's just throw it out that many, many, many of us are getting help to do this.

Many of us have realized that we do need the help. We do need the medication, [00:50:00] and we do need

help need to learn the tools to get through this. Additionally, in the past, there was a village. existed, that in our culture has kind of fallen by the wayside, and there's more of this focus on independence that I believe is stressing women out and all of this competition to be the best at everything.

Megan you had an emergency C-section with your first and you nearly died of HELLP syndrome with your second. What helped you cope after such traumatic? Deliveries. 

[00:50:30] Track 1: The midwives were a part of my aftercare. So they me all sorts of resources for the trauma that I had just experienced, which was really good.

and then of course they helped me with nursing. They helped, set me up with, a postpartum doula. So she came and helped with nursing and different things. and they also helped me find a resource for, therapy, which that was my saving grace, ELO was born, cuz I was, I was a mess for a while.

but [00:51:00] the therapy that I did was called the emdr. and you retell your story holding these things that buzz and then you have headphones on that have things that. that beep in your ear and you retell your story. And what it's supposed to do is kind of retrace your brain activity to take it to a place where it's not as emotional for you.

it's still your story, it's but you can look at it in a way where it's not as traumatic, feeling the trauma every single time that you talk about the story. So I got in that right away, and I think that was the best thing that I probably could have done. also, I was a breastfeeding mama, that was super important to me.

they wanted to give him formula in the hospital and I was like, No way. And so I stuck with nursing. Probably to a detriment, to the point where like I was in a lot of pain nursing and we couldn't figure out what it was. [00:52:00] so eventually at 10 weeks, nursing was so bad that, that it felt like somebody was like cutting off my nipple every time he nursed and I'd be in tears and I wouldn't give it so anyway, they found out he had a tongue tie, so we took him to a dentist, pediatric dentist. They clipped his tongue, it didn't work . So then we had to go back like two or three weeks later and he got it. clipped again and nursing was great after that.

So we continued to nurse and everything was amazing

Megan Postpartum 2nd

[00:52:27] Track 1: so her like postpartum for the most part was really good. I waited almost a year before I got any therapy with her. I don't know why I waited so long, but it was really, really traumatic. basically almost losing my life, during that.

So I did EMDR with her again, when she was about a year old. And that was really, really healing for me. it was really good. 

I'm so glad you did. That it is so important to address. I guess that trauma. [00:53:00] Emily fennel after postpartum depression and anxiety with your first. Baby. And then the tragic loss of your baby and your fertility with your second. Second If you I Could go back and talk to yourself During those experiences what would you say 

[00:53:16] Track 1: See I and I've thought about this before I feel like with the first pregnancy it was like I would just want her to relax and trust because I did I didn't really get into it but I definitely had some postpartum anxiety I had never experienced anxiety really at all of my life until until the hormones of pregnancy and childbirth I mean honestly it was like a night and day switch for me cuz I mean we talk about what women don't know what you don't realize your body is going to go through Those hormones are strong and new things come in that you've never felt before And I was that mom that was like Is he breathing Is he breathing Is he breathing I was just so afraid I think it was just [00:54:00] That that intensity of vulnerability of loving something so much that you're terrified something could happen And I also think I had mentally prepared myself to give birth to like a six month old and it said this little alien came out that I was like is he gonna live He's so tiny So I think going back it's funny that I even say this cuz my dad did give me this advice at the time but I don't think I was receptive to it But I tended to seek outside knowledge instead of trust myself I had to read all of the sleep training books and the parenting books and it was like everything I read I would jump on board to different ideas like sleep training or not sleep training and my father noticed this about me and he said I want you to put the books down and I want you to trust that you know how to be a mother You instinctually know trust yourself And like I said I probably wasn't as receptive as I should have [00:55:00] been because looking back that would be the advice I would give to myself during the pregnancy but specifically after the p After Everett was born 

and with with the second pregnancy gosh I feel like I just would love to let her know that whatever she thinks is going to happen it is so much more expansive and amazing and abundant than she could ever have Dream Because I just I was so living in the moment and like I described back when I just I didn't have that light at the end of the tunnel but the truth is I had to experience all that I don't actually regret it I don't wish in a way I feel like it was a true experie So I don't know I don't know what I would say to her I would I would wanna just assure her that it's going to be okay

,

​[00:56:00]